Non binary - AIBU to not be ok?

[Hampshiremum2]

We have discovered over the weekend that our daughter has requested her friends refer to her with a new (gender neutral) name, it has gone as far as her friends parents now refer to her with this name too. I am devastated really, she is 12 and I really cannot get on board with the idea. Perhaps I am an awful bigot but it feels like her reasons for wanting to be labelled 'non-binary' (sorry if this is the wrong terminology) are just an attempt to reject stereotypes that girls are all dumb and only bothered about how they look (this is what she has said boys at school tell her). So to my point AIBU to say we can't support this until she is older and able to make a more informed decision? We want her to be happy but this idea that you cannot be happy as a girl without being pretty and Barbie seems madness to me!

On a side note is anyone aware of my rights as to what happens with school, if she asks for her name to be changed and her pronouns can they do this without my agreement? X

Get yourself over to the feminism board.

This will progress.

Monitor her internet usage and look closely at friendship groups / participation in LGBT groups.

Safeguarding is not bigotry. You have a safeguarding issue to take seriously.

Tell her that girls can be clever and have zero interest in how they look and if people (boys) think they can't then why doesn't she prove them wrong rather than pretending she's not completely female (or whatever ridiculousness NB is supposed to mean).

I second moving over to the feminism board.

You need to proceed with caution as unfortunately some non binary girls end up getting double mastectomies at 18 to affirm their 'gender'.

Changing names and pronouns isn't neutral and school should not be doing anything without speaking to you / getting your consent.

You need to watch a YouTube video with Jordan Peterson and a mother in a similar position.

We went through the same, even at the same age, OP. We are now 3 years on and out the other side. I found a lot of useful resources on the Feminism board, though I never posted to ask for advice, I found it useful just reading the experiences of others.

I really would advise a massive crack down on social media as that was one of the driving forces in our situation. It wasn't easy.

We've tried this approach, I have a successful career and I am not hugely focused on my image so it has us entirely confused.

Thank you!! Good that we can get through it, she has NO access to social media herself but appears to be having it shared whenever with her friends and I am not sure how we can stop that. Can anyone tell me how to move it to the feminism board please?

You could try pointing out that as far as gender (sex based stereotypes) are concerned, EVERYONE is "non binary"
As far as actual sex is concerned, no one is.
But I agree with others. Post this on the feminism - sex and gender board.

Can anyone tell me how to move it to the feminism board please?

I think if you go to report on the opening post if you click 'other' you can ask Mumsnet to move it.

I would advise a massive rethink of how she spends her time. It was important to us that we didn't communicate that anything was a punishment or a direct reaction to what was being said, but tried to make sure DC was busy most of the time.

We increased sports clubs, encouraged her to attend any clubs where a certain group from school wouldn't be. We got into a volunteering spot somewhere with a lot of manual work where there were no girly girls, this made a massive difference.

Ultimately she didn't have a lot of time to spend with her phone, although we didn't remove it. I wanted to change her worldview, the people she saw most of the time, wanted her to spend time with people who weren't fussed about gender issues - school at the time seemed to be a hotbed of it, it was all they seemed to talk about amongst those in her year.

I'm not a parent to teenagers so feel free to dismiss my advice.

I wouldn't make a big deal of it for now. Making it shameful and taboo will only make her more interested, and give her something to rebel against. If you can try and stay calm and not turn this into a drama, it will be far less intriguing for her.

There is such a stereotypical accepted narrative around parents being unsupportive ogres of LGBTQIA people, that being supportive might actually take the excitement around it away for her.

If your dd is willing/ interested in reading, maybe getting her some books on the oppression of women might be good for her. I recommend The Beauty Myth and The Feminine Mystique. It will help her understand that she is not necessarily trying to reject being a woman but is trying to reject the bullshit stereotypes and expectations placed upon us that have nothing to do with who we really are.

And also maybe talk to her about internalized misogyny. How women are taught to dismiss other women who are overtly feminine and care about their looks as bimbos and airheads. Which is woman-hating rubbish. Hedy Lamarr was a beautiful, glamorous actress but she was also a scientist and inventor. Sylvia Plath wore red lipstick and looked great in a bathing suit but was arguably the most important female poet of the last 100 years. Marilyn Monroe had a very high IQ and read James Joyce and Chekhov.

And 'not like the other girls' syndrome, which just perpetuates the hatred of women.

This is exactly what we did when our DD did the same at 11/12 (except the last para)
She changed her name and pronouns at school, and we did our best with calling her by what she'd chosen
About 12 months after it started, she asked us to revert her gender to female at school, and about 6 months after that she changed her name back
Our view was that we didn't want her to entrench herself into a position where she couldn't come back from it without a big loss of face, which was why we went along with it. (The only time I lost it was when she said she didn't mind if we called her "he", which I told her was just plain daft, not to mention extremely confusing for people)
Plus I didn't want to draw a line for the sake of it - my red line was drugs and surgery, and thankfully we never got near it
We never really limited her social media
Just our experience, but it worked for us

Might be worth looking at the Transgender Trend website for advice…

https://www.transgendertrend.com/

I would focus only on the good parts of what she is telling you (research the rest, I mean in terms of what you say to her as there's a very divisive nature to this movement).

It's great that you don't want to conform. It's good you recognise these things can be done by people who are not men.
Yes your hair looks great short. Oh yes they are much more comfortable clothes.

The feminism board will help you with language. Avoid calling her the preferred name but just say my child, preteen, whatever isn't cheerleading this but also can't be pounced upon.

Getting away from these influences if you can manage a weekend away, long walk, anything to create mental distance. Encourage any other hobbies that aren't part of this.

On a side note is anyone aware of my rights as to what happens with school, if she asks for her name to be changed and her pronouns can they do this without my agreement?

Also in relation to schools look at the Safe Schools Alliance website.

https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

Agree with previous posts - pick your battles, minimise discussion about it, focus on increasing her outside activities, hobbies, including family ones, so that she navigates through adolescence with a sense of herself that's grounded in reality. Try to make sure that you pick up any other issues around friendships, anxiety, anything really. Parental relationships / support is vital (which is why the "your parents are bigots" is pushed so much by dubious people).

There's a tendency for children confused about their sex to focus on this above everything else (often aided and abetted by adult useful idiots, including in schools and the NHS). If it wasn't for all the adults trying to intervene, most children would navigate this and move on.

Try not to make this the focus of family time / discussions (hard I know). As Cass pointed out, for most children this will be a phase in their lives. The challenge is to ensure that you keep the puberty blockers / surgery ghouls away from her so that she can safely explore her feelings throughout adolescence, knowing she has your love and support.

You may need .

Hi OP

I am wondering if this might be timely.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/events/teenagers-and-gender-distress-webinar/

You have had some great advice on here so far. It is of course, really important to give love and support. I understand that she is reacting to what she is being told at school that is all about stereotypes, we went through something similar.

Obviously, as tweens and teens they need to explore who they are for themselves. Including their names. Friends of my now teen have regularly changed their names. Half the time I have no idea who they are talking about. If it is just treated as a 'nick name', then that is fine. Once they want it changed at school officially, that needs very careful navigation. As Dr Hilary Cass says, it is not a neutral act at all.

This night be helpful too:
https://sex-matters.org/posts/events/teenagers-and-gender-distress-webinar/

I admit to being one of 'those' friend's parents who uses 12yo chosen name. There isn't really any other option and it really doesn't mean it has escalated very far. It's what dd uses for her friend. I try and avoid pronouns where possible. I was pleased to find out recently that this young person's parents have insisted on a 6 month trial period before they will consider any name change. I think that sounds like a good approach. Cautious, showing care, not a blanket 'no' but not jumping in straight away.. Said child has changed name several times over the past year so has not yet managed 6 months.

She's TWELVE 😂 she must be getting a huge rush from all the attention, with people bending over backwards for her.
I'd be investigating exactly what her online influences are, whether her peer group are also all "coming out" too and why she's going through such an attention seeking phase.
I'd also take it all with a very much "smile and nod and eye roll" approach.

Thank you!! Good that we can get through it, she has NO access to social media herself but appears to be having it shared whenever with her friends and I am not sure how we can stop that. Can anyone tell me how to move it to the feminism board please?

This really worries me.

This is not a concept she has learned by herself at the age of 12 and if she's not picked it up via social media then it's being fed by another source.

There's is another thread on her about a posters daughter whose transition to being enabled by her girlfriends mother.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4717419-dd-ran-away-to-be-with-trans-lover-and-refuses-to-return?reply=126213633&utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

I'd also look at the PITT substack and this article in particular:

pitt.substack.com/p/why-does-trans-have-no-boundaries

My concern is that she is being ideologically groomed potentially by the parent of a friend.

I'd definitely look to have a conversation about if she has spoken to any adults about this and ask what information they have shared with her.

I'd also speak to her school and be clear that they do not have your permission to "trans" your daughter by changing names/pronouns and cite the interim Cass report as being clear that social transition is not a neutral act.

You don't have a full picture here and you need to get it pronto. Being told by boys at school that being a girl is crappy does not result in a 12 year old having a sufficient understanding of queer theory/gender ideology to come out as non-binary.

You need to find out who is feeding her this information and cut them out asap.

Conversations with your DD reinforcing that she need not conform to sex stereotypes and that her feelings in being expected to do are are perfectly normal are unlikely to be effective if simultaneously she's being fed an alternative narrative of being super special by rejecting her sex altogether.

Could you be more specific? What do you mean by saying “mumsnet is not the place… for a balanced view”? I have read through many posts and have been impressed by how thoughtful, sensitive and informed most posters seem to be.