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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Daughters excluded from peerage due to gender outraged by trans woman standing for Lords seat

82 replies

SerendipityJane · 14/05/2023 10:18

https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1657651853725761537

https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1657651853725761537

OP posts:
BonfireLady · 14/05/2023 15:19

Just to clarify, Nicola Sturgeon said she believes trans women are women ("except... er... in the... er... prison context") hence my wording above.

I don't believe that trans women are women. But I do believe that they and trans men are a minority that deserve compassion for their gender identity beliefs and any distress that gender dysphoria leads to. Just not laws that are baked in the "reality" of a gender identity belief, when not everyone holds that same belief. To do so would feel very much like a return to the laws in the UK that validated killing Catholics for having the wrong kind of Christian belief.
The peerage exemption helps to highlight the nonsense of the law that is currently in place. Either a transwoman lord is a woman or a transwoman lord isn't a woman. It's Isla Bryson all over again, just without the hideous crime bit and dressed up in fancy posh tradition.

HollywoodTease · 14/05/2023 19:27

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 14/05/2023 14:41

I can't say for sure. I've been confused about this in the past as I read somewhere that the applicant was a transman but someone on this board who seemed very clued up said no, it was a transwoman. I've found this online and that seems to confirm it was a transwoman called Christine Goodwin, although possibly the facts were not quite as I thought, as the judgement seems to be about a theoretical right to marry. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn that Whittle had also taken to the courts. https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/fs_gender_identity_eng.pdf

I thought Goodwin's case was about state pensions, and was partly why the govt ended up increasing the age for women, leaving hundreds of thousands out of pocket.

I'll read that properly later, thanks for the link.

Grammarnut · 14/05/2023 19:52

theotherfossilsister · 14/05/2023 10:22

Ok, but couldn't this be a positive thing? Couldn't it force them to accept women too?

I honestly didn't.knoentuevsydyek was so antideluvian

No, it won't. The GRA specifically removes hereditary titles from being inherited by transmen i.e. women, whilst allowing transwomen, i.e. to inherit as they are men - UK peerages are inherited by absolute male primogeniture although this was not always the case and daughters could inherit if there was no son (their husband took the title but the daughter's son inherited through her on her death).

Shelefttheweb · 14/05/2023 20:42

The GRA excluded peerages as they didn’t want women taking things away from men.

SquidwardBound · 14/05/2023 20:56

Yes. It’s pretty telling that this nonsense came from cowardice in a labour government.

They didn’t want to be brave and make the case for gay marriage. They didn’t want to be brave and challenge the sexism built into peerages and inheritance.

So we end up with this absolute nonsense. We must act like we believe a biological
male is a woman unless being male is an advantage. In fact, we are supposed to act like this particular man (and he is a man, because that is the basis on which he is claiming this right!) is winning some brilliant victory for inclusion.

It is shocking that sexism determines this sort of inheritance. But let’s not pretend that this attention-seeking male peer is somehow helping women here.

MargotBamborough · 14/05/2023 21:01

ILoveToSquanderPromise · 14/05/2023 10:51

If Lady Simon is so convinced he's a woman, why hasn't he fought for his older sister to inherit their father's title? After all ... oh wait. What a load of bollocks. Literally, in this case.

Because there's an exemption for that in the Gender Recognition Act. A person with a gender recognition certificate has changed sex legally for all purposes except for the purposes of inheriting titles and property in accordance with male primogeniture.

David Lammy fought for that exemption in parliament in 2003.

Yes, the same David Lammy who called women who need single sex spaces "dinosaurs who hoard rights".

ScrollingLeaves · 14/05/2023 21:01

The GRA specifically removes hereditary titles from being inherited by transmen i.e. women, whilst allowing transwomen, i.e. to inherit as they are men

Do you think this could be used as proof against the Haldane judgement? Proof that the GRA itself says that Sex is biological?

Musomama1 · 14/05/2023 21:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

JacquelinePot · 14/05/2023 22:26

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 14/05/2023 10:54

We've said this before, but it bears repetition. Way back in the early 2000s a UK national went all the way through the courts and ended up at the European Court of Human Rights seeking the legal right to marry their partner, and won. The person concerned was male, identified as a woman, and wanted to marry a man. This was impossible at the time because birth certificates were required and same sex marriage was not allowed in law.

One way round this would have been to introduce same-sex marriage, but the Labour government felt the UK public was not ready to accept that. (A mistake, I think. Civil partnerships were very readily accepted a few years later when the Tories introduced them.)

Instead, they drew up the Gender Recognition Act, making it possible for people with a psychiatric diagnosis of gender dysphoria to apply to a panel for permission to get a new birth certificate showing the sex they identified with, not their actual biological sex as recorded on their original birth certificate.

Like most British people, I was barely aware this was happening at the time. The House of Commons and the House of Lords had to debate the proposed new law but they weren't given a lot of time to do it, because the government had a big majority at the time and knew they could get this through with minimal opposition. Some MPs and Lords did raise concerns, all recorded in Hansard, but the government's response was (more or less) that this was scaremongering. They were doing this to be kind to a tiny minority of people. Their own experts said there were unlikely to be more than 5000 people in the whole of the UK who would qualify for a gender recognition certificate. They were spot on there, as in nearly 20 years it's been barely more than that issued altogether, I believe.

However, what the government had totally failed to grasp was that activists regarded the GRA as a foot in the door and never intended to stop there, and of course they didn't, as we have seen in the last few years. Self-ID was always the goal, and if you take away the safeguards of panel, psychiatric reports, gender dysphoria diagnosis and so on, and the effect of social media and social contagion, suddenly there are hundreds of thousands of people who don't identify as their birth sex.

Anyway, going back to the debates - having waved aside all concerns about single-sex services and spaces, women's sport, integrity of birth records etc etc - Parliament did make at least one amendment to the GRA before it passed into law. Getting a GRC would have no effect whatsoever on the individual's right to inherit a peerage.

Suppose Lord Marmaduke Bloggs has three children: daughter Araminta, son Josiah, son Ebenezer, born in that order. Josiah is the one in line to inherit the title, as the elder son. If Josiah predeceased Marmaduke, Ebenezer would inherit. Araminta has no chance, because she is a girl. Ludicrous system all round, but that's what we have.

Now suppose in adult life Josiah identifies as trans and takes the name Josie Bloggs. Josie gets a GRC and has a new birth certificate showing that Josie Bloggs is female. Marmaduke dies. It might have been expected that the title would now pass to Ebenezer. Josiah is legally female for all purposes now, after all - but no! Legally female for all purposes, except inheritance of a title! So the title that couldn't pass to Araminta still goes to Josie.

And naturally enough, if Araminta also got a GRC and became Aramis Bloggs, certified male - yes, you've guessed it. Still not entitled to inherit a title, in spite of being legally male and older than Josie.

What a farce.

I was early 20s when Labour introduced the GRA, and like most people had no idea. I found out about it in about 2018 and just about fell off my chair. It's absurd and it has lead to obscene situations like men in women's prisons and sports and women being gaslight by the NHS to believe that man in their ward/performing their intimate procedure is female. It needs repealling, urgently.

Here's an eye-popping thread on how the debates went at the time

https://twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1177699186361458688?cxt=HHwWgIC79fLKg9ggAAAA

https://twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1177699186361458688?cxt=HHwWgIC79fLKg9ggAAAA

BaseDrops · 14/05/2023 22:28

Nicola Sturgeon said she believes trans women are women ("except... er... in the... er... prison context")

AKA trans women are women except in cases where violent crimes against female employees were facilitated by trans women prisoners being placed in female prisons.

That places responsibility on Scot Gov due to inadequate failure to prevent harm. Which also puts employees and members of the prison boards in the frame for prosecution.

Private companies however - well it’s their risk innit. ScotGov publicly affirm “trans women are women”, achieving trans support and good press while ensuring their own services are becoming um, more risk averse. The hypocrisy is quite something.

From the HSE

“Legal liability of individual board members for health and safety failures If a health and safety offence is committed with the consent or connivance of, or is attributable to any neglect on the part of, any director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the organisation, then that person (as well as the organisation) can be prosecuted under section 37 of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974.

Recent case law has confirmed that directors cannot avoid a charge of neglect under section 37 by arranging their organisation's business so as to leave them ignorant of circumstances which would trigger their obligation to address health and safety breaches.
Those found guilty are liable for fines and imprisonment. In addition, the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986, section 2(1), empowers the court to disqualify an individual convicted of an offence in connection with the management of a company. This includes health and safety offences. This power is exercised at the discretion of the court; it requires no additional investigation or evidence.”

https://www.hse.gov.uk/leadership/legislation.htm

Legislation: Leading health and safety at work

HSC outlines the legal responsibilities of employers and organisations. Discusses the legal liability of individual board members for health and safety failures.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/leadership/legislation.htm

FigRollsAlly · 14/05/2023 22:29

MargotBamborough · 14/05/2023 21:01

Because there's an exemption for that in the Gender Recognition Act. A person with a gender recognition certificate has changed sex legally for all purposes except for the purposes of inheriting titles and property in accordance with male primogeniture.

David Lammy fought for that exemption in parliament in 2003.

Yes, the same David Lammy who called women who need single sex spaces "dinosaurs who hoard rights".

David Lammy?? I didn’t think he could go any further down in my estimation but he just has. Was he identifying as Jacob Rees Mogg that day?

Wenfy · 14/05/2023 22:33

This man has an elder sister. If they changed the law he should, quite rightly, lose his peerage to her.

dcbc1234 · 15/05/2023 02:08

Wenfy · 14/05/2023 22:33

This man has an elder sister. If they changed the law he should, quite rightly, lose his peerage to her.

Such changes are unlikely to be retrospective.

RayonSunrise · 15/05/2023 08:19

ResisterRex · 14/05/2023 12:04

I'm always surprised that civil partnerships are looked back on with no negativity. IIRC, Stonewall pushed them a lot, and ignored dissenting LGB views (L in particular) who didn't want them - or marriage.

But even if you did want equality, CPs were not equality. They were like apartheid for homosexuals.

Between the GRA and CPs, it stuns me that these were Labour "party of equality" actions.

"Apartheid for homosexuals" is overstating the difference between a civil partnership and marriage by some margin. In practice they are exactly the same thing, only marriages could happen in churches but civil partnerships couldn't. A bit tough if you were gay and deeply religious, but in terms of legal rights and protections there was barely a sliver of light between civil partnership and marriage. (Which was why I regarded the heterosexual couple fighting for their right to a civil partnership as a couple of numpties - they could get married in a registrar's office anyway, so they were taking up all that court time over a tiny semantic difference.)

Both the civil partnership/GRA stuff was a fudge to support gay rights without risking up the traditionalists. We have been dealing with the fallout of the latter ever since.

ResisterRex · 15/05/2023 08:26

I don't think it is overstating it. Marriages can take place in a registry office and that was denied to same-sex couples. Equal marriage didn't happen until the Cameron era.

RayonSunrise · 15/05/2023 12:34

ResisterRex · 15/05/2023 08:26

I don't think it is overstating it. Marriages can take place in a registry office and that was denied to same-sex couples. Equal marriage didn't happen until the Cameron era.

Civil partnerships and marriages both happened in registry offices. (I attended civil partnerships in registry offices!) If you look at a side-by-side explanation of what they actually meant in law, it was the same thing. The whole point was to keep traditionalists quiet because it "wasn't really marriage," except it was. This seems to have been lost on a lot of people, including the straight couple who made out that being civil partners somehow made their union different from a marriage in something other than name.

Bosky · 15/05/2023 17:37

Interesting. I wonder what happened with this case? Obviously failed but why?

"In 2018, five daughters of hereditary peers took the Government to the European Court of Human Rights, arguing they were being discriminated against by being blocked from the Lords."

Then there is this, also failed:

Let daughters inherit peerages, says MP vowing to end sexism in the Lords
Harriett Baldwin will present her proposals to MPs this week as she calls for abolition of the ‘last bastion of constitutional sexism’
16 January 2023
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/16/let-daughters-inherit-peerages-says-mp-vowing-end-sexism-lords/

Looking on the bright side, maybe Lady Simon's bare-faced cheek will help expose the sham of "gender identity"?

It looks from the Telegraph article as if Lady Simon does not have a GRC so remains legally male and the GRA is not relevant anyway in this case.

"Matilda Simon, the 3rd Baron of Wythenshawe, is tipped to stand in a by-election to replace the Liberal Democrat Viscount Falkland, voted on by all sitting peers, with entries closing on May 15.

If successful, they would become the only woman, self-identified, among the chamber’s 92 hereditary peers, despite holding a title because they were born a man."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/13/daughters-shunned-from-peerage-angry-as-trans-tory-allowed/

jellyfrizz · 15/05/2023 17:53

Hagosaurus · 14/05/2023 10:44

Strange how it’s so triggering to be expected to play sport/use spaces & services for your own sex, but taking a privilege which is only extended to men is…..absolutely fine
Why on earth would that be?

Yes, doesn't this law mean that trans women are 'banned' from standing? Just like all those poor trans women 'banned' from taking part in the sports they love.

happydappy2 · 15/05/2023 18:01

It’s ridiculous situations like this that make the only answer repealing the GRA. Males simply cannot have legal status as women. (Especially when in some instances they retain a privilege only men have access to!)

nilsmousehammer · 15/05/2023 18:46

happydappy2 · 15/05/2023 18:01

It’s ridiculous situations like this that make the only answer repealing the GRA. Males simply cannot have legal status as women. (Especially when in some instances they retain a privilege only men have access to!)

This.

It was a ridiculous law in the first place, badly made and for the wrong reasons. No one should be able to be legally recognised as something they in fact are not, and the unintended negative consequences of experimenting with it have proved that.

Not to mention the baked in misogyny of a male dominated government voting in something that saves them problems and serenely ignores all the impact on women as unimportant, while adding exemptions to make sure that men are not inconvenienced.

Bosky · 15/05/2023 19:08

Lady Simon does not have a GRC so in this case it is not just the GRA at fault.

The lunacy exposed here is also with the Equality Act 2010, which relies on the definition of "gender reassignment" in the GRA2004 (which pre-GRC is basically Self-ID) and then presumes in favour of "self-identified women" being included in single-sex provision for women unless an organisation chooses to exclude them as "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim" - and feels it could justify that in a court of law if a discrimination claim were made.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination#lawful

So Lady Simon (legally male because no GRC) can still expect to treated like a Lady in most circumstances (EA2010) but chooses to be treated like a Lord when it comes to the peerage - because legally male.

The only difference if Lady Simon had a GRC, in terms of the peerage, is that Lady Simon would automatically be given a "male ticket" (meal ticket?) to entry despite being "legally female" - because GRA 2004 actual male privilege in law.

Lady Simon could also choose to relinquish the right to the peerage and let big sister put her name forward for the ballot, whether or not Lady Simon had a GRC.

haXXor · 15/05/2023 20:39

Ofcourseshecan · 14/05/2023 11:25

Yes. Protecting male privilege is a feature of genderism, not a bug.

I read that ‘feature, not bug’ expression on Mumsnet, and loved the way it summed the whole damn thing up so neatly.

Thanks. It's not my invention though, it's in wide use in my field.

ResisterRex · 15/05/2023 22:30

I understand the point, Rayon and funny enough, I'm able to grasp what happens in a registry office but having different lanes because you're homosexual isn't equality! If Labour had brought in same-sex marriage then that would have been equality. Not "ooh sorry, you'll need THIS" instead. Which was only made equal in the Cameron era.

ResisterRex · 15/05/2023 22:31

Bosky · 15/05/2023 19:08

Lady Simon does not have a GRC so in this case it is not just the GRA at fault.

The lunacy exposed here is also with the Equality Act 2010, which relies on the definition of "gender reassignment" in the GRA2004 (which pre-GRC is basically Self-ID) and then presumes in favour of "self-identified women" being included in single-sex provision for women unless an organisation chooses to exclude them as "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim" - and feels it could justify that in a court of law if a discrimination claim were made.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination#lawful

So Lady Simon (legally male because no GRC) can still expect to treated like a Lady in most circumstances (EA2010) but chooses to be treated like a Lord when it comes to the peerage - because legally male.

The only difference if Lady Simon had a GRC, in terms of the peerage, is that Lady Simon would automatically be given a "male ticket" (meal ticket?) to entry despite being "legally female" - because GRA 2004 actual male privilege in law.

Lady Simon could also choose to relinquish the right to the peerage and let big sister put her name forward for the ballot, whether or not Lady Simon had a GRC.

Well, well, well. Almost like having your cake and eating it, too.

Bosky · 16/05/2023 03:13

Yep.

The EHRC Guidance "Separate and single-sex service providers: a guide on the Equality Act sex and gender reassignment exceptions April 2022" is a lot better than the 2010 EHRC Statutory Code of Practice though. That was blatantly misogynistic, disgustingly so given that EHRC Commissioners are appointed by the Minister for Women and Equalities.

Separate and single-sex service providers: a guide on the Equality Act sex and gender reassignment provisions - EHRC 2022
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and-gender

Sex Matters Statement on the EHRC 2022 Guidance
https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/statement-on-ehrc-guidance/