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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Thelnebriati · 09/05/2023 12:30

''Criminal defence lawyers across Scotland will not allow their clients to become guinea pigs in a scheme where the starting point of the scheme is to engineer verdicts to bring about more convictions," Mr Woodward-Nutt said.''

IMO rape myths engineer not guilty verdicts.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-65523962

Humza Yousaf

Humza Yousaf defends rape trial scheme as boycott grows

Lawyers in Aberdeen join colleagues in Glasgow and Edinburgh in opposing juryless trials.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-65523962

Lockheart · 09/05/2023 14:09

I have issues with removing the jury generally, but in this specific case I would be quite concerned that any convictions secured under this pilot would be quashed or re-tried once the pilot has ended. I want to know what happens to those trials conducted without a jury if jury-less trials are found to be unjust or not robust enough.

I don't think it's fair to the victims to put them through that uncertainty, having to go through a retrial or worse having their attacker released, and if it was my case going to court I wouldn't want this.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 09/05/2023 14:30

Juries convict 75% of rape defendants (2021 figures) - way higher than the conviction rates for most violent crimes.

Juries aren’t the problem - the failure to investigate and charge effectively is the issue.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/05/2023 15:21

Are there any figures on where the failures are occurring? Obviously a tiny percentage of rapists are convicted - are rapes not being reported, or police not doing their job, or the fiscal not doing their job?

Falt · 09/05/2023 15:33

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/05/2023 15:21

Are there any figures on where the failures are occurring? Obviously a tiny percentage of rapists are convicted - are rapes not being reported, or police not doing their job, or the fiscal not doing their job?

Not sure why anyone in Scotland would report a rape when we know the system thinks acceptable punishment is a few hours litter picking. I'd probably start with changing that before fannying about with the actual trials. Bit like removing a splinter from one eye when there's a gigantic fucking plank in the other one.

Forwarder · 09/05/2023 15:47

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 09/05/2023 14:30

Juries convict 75% of rape defendants (2021 figures) - way higher than the conviction rates for most violent crimes.

Juries aren’t the problem - the failure to investigate and charge effectively is the issue.

But so much easier to try and manipulate the outcomes than properly resoucing the inputs.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 09/05/2023 16:33

Forwarder · 09/05/2023 15:47

But so much easier to try and manipulate the outcomes than properly resoucing the inputs.

Show quote history

Exactly.

lechiffre55 · 09/05/2023 16:39

I wonder how the SNP would feel about juryless fraud and corruption trials to raise conviction rates.

Dougalskeeper · 09/05/2023 16:56

Salmon was found not guilty by a (majority female) jury. THAT is what's pushing this particular obscenity. As other posters have pointed out, juries are not the problem here

Thelnebriati · 09/05/2023 16:57

From the link I posted;

''Justice Secretary Angela Constance has claimed that low conviction rates for rape and attempted rape are hampered by the "prevalence of preconceptions".
In the most recent figures, conviction rates for rape and attempted rape were 51%, compared with 91% for all other crimes.''

Floisme · 09/05/2023 16:59

I'm not in Scotland but it's s something of an understatement to say I'm deeply uncomfortable with this. As I understand it, the right in the UK to be tried in front of a jury of your peers is centuries old. What is going on?

DemiColon · 09/05/2023 17:25

I wouldn't allow my client to go in front of a trial without a jury either.

As far as conviction rates - I think before comparing to other kinds of crimes, we need to ask if we should expect all types of crimes to have similar conviction rates. In an idea worl we'd always get a conviction if the person was guilty, and there would only be a charge is someone was guilty. In reality, not all crimes are equally easy to investigate or prove.

Floisme · 09/05/2023 17:27

Thanks for the link. For me the most shocking figure in that report is the first one:
'55,259 rapes reported last year; but only 2,102 prosecutions'

OK I'm no expert and I know these women are, but I don't understand how taking away the right to trial by jury would improve the rate of prosecutions?
If anything, I could see it driving the figure even lower, as I can imagine it could lead to an even greater reluctance to press charges.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 09/05/2023 17:42

Thelnebriati · 09/05/2023 16:57

From the link I posted;

''Justice Secretary Angela Constance has claimed that low conviction rates for rape and attempted rape are hampered by the "prevalence of preconceptions".
In the most recent figures, conviction rates for rape and attempted rape were 51%, compared with 91% for all other crimes.''

The BBC doesn't link to the source of these figures, so it's difficult to know what baseline they are using, but the numbers look odd. There is no way that the conviction rate for other major crimes is 91%, so I think they must be including magistrates courts and possibly also cautions etc.

This is a comprehensive review of rape convictions in E&W. It found no evidence that juries are inappropriately acquitting, or that they are prejudiced against women. It's hard to believe that jury behaviour in Scotland would be significantly different.

Juries in England and Wales convict defendants for rape more often than they acquit, finds large-scale analysis

Once a rape case reaches court, juries in England and Wales are more likely to convict than acquit a defendant, and this has been the case for at least 15 years, according to a large-scale analysis of all jury verdicts by UCL's Professor Cheryl Thomas.

https://phys.org/news/2023-02-juries-england-wales-convict-defendants.html?utm_source=pocket_saves

IwantToRetire · 09/05/2023 18:13

As women's groups have been campaigning for this for years it is a bit ironic to say the system isn't listening to women.

Another suggestion had been that if there were jury trials the jurists should undergo special training before hearing any cases to counter rape myths. But I would think that would be far more likely to look like biasing outcomes (although of course social biases are influencing outcomes ie she was asking for it, its not worth ruining a man's life for one little error and all the other anti woman concepts) Does anyone remember that recent tv show following rape victims trying to get their case to court, and the one that did get there was so clearly the rape of a woman in a hotel by a man who followed her to her room, and the jury didn't convict. The woman was devasted, and the police who worked to put together all the evidence, CTV etc., were totally taken aback.

And again you can see from various women's groups that have been campaigning on this issue for years, that because so many juries wouldn't take a woman's word over a man's, and the CPS was set targets for sucessful trials, it meant that the CPS set a far higher bar before considering taking a case for court. Because they have to hit their targets so they just drop cases.

IwantToRetire · 09/05/2023 18:17

Only 5.5% of reported rapes lead to a conviction while the conviction rate for those cases that reach court is 43% compared to 88% for all crimes.

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/judge-only-trials/

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 09/05/2023 18:23

IwantToRetire · 09/05/2023 18:13

As women's groups have been campaigning for this for years it is a bit ironic to say the system isn't listening to women.

Another suggestion had been that if there were jury trials the jurists should undergo special training before hearing any cases to counter rape myths. But I would think that would be far more likely to look like biasing outcomes (although of course social biases are influencing outcomes ie she was asking for it, its not worth ruining a man's life for one little error and all the other anti woman concepts) Does anyone remember that recent tv show following rape victims trying to get their case to court, and the one that did get there was so clearly the rape of a woman in a hotel by a man who followed her to her room, and the jury didn't convict. The woman was devasted, and the police who worked to put together all the evidence, CTV etc., were totally taken aback.

And again you can see from various women's groups that have been campaigning on this issue for years, that because so many juries wouldn't take a woman's word over a man's, and the CPS was set targets for sucessful trials, it meant that the CPS set a far higher bar before considering taking a case for court. Because they have to hit their targets so they just drop cases.

Except that the objective data doesn't support any of that.

For the last 15 years in E&W, juries have convicted in rape trials at a substantially higher rate than for other serious violent crimes. This is despite rape having the highest prevalence of no guilty pleas.

It's convenient for the police and judicial systems that they have somehow convinced campaigners - in the teeth of the evidence - that the bedrock of UK justice, the jury, is the problem, and not the police/CPS/COPFS, who only manage to bring 1.5% of reported rapes to court.

So juries convict in 75% of cases at present (58% over the last 15 years)
And the police/CPS/COPFS bring 1.5% of reported rapes to court.

And you think the problem is juries?

donquixotedelamancha · 09/05/2023 18:41

I wonder how the SNP would feel about juryless fraud and corruption trials to raise conviction rates.

Given the previous allegations of political interference with the judicial system, I imagine they'd be fucking thrilled.

IwantToRetire · 09/05/2023 18:45

Yet again you are trying to pick a quarrel.

On another thread and on here it has been explained to you that the supposed rise in rape convictions is because the CPS is block so may cases from going to court.

So the stats are meaningless because it doesn't show how many cases dont get to court because the CPS know how hard it is to get a jury to convict.

I dont have an opinion. I give you the facts from experts and you shoot off on some tangent.

So although boring for everyone else to have to repeat stats that dont fit what you want to argue.

Only 5.5% of reported rapes lead to a conviction while the conviction rate for those cases that reach court is 43% compared to 88% for all crimes.

The link to this is above. If you have a problem with these stats contact the woman researcher who compiled the report.

Please do contact the various Rape charities who have argued for non jury trials.

ScrollingLeaves · 09/05/2023 19:05

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · Today 14:30

Juries convict 75% of rape defendants (2021 figures) - way higher than the conviction rates for most violent crimes.

Juries aren’t the problem - the failure to investigate and charge effectively is the issue.

Are you sure about the statistics? This article says:

In the most recent figures, conviction rates for rape and attempted rape were 51%, compared with 91% for all other crimes.

Changenamefortoday · 09/05/2023 19:30

NC for this.

A few years ago I was on the jury for a rape trial in Scotland. At the beginning of the trial I thought OMG I'm sitting a X feet from a rapist. As the trial went on it became apparent to the majority female jurors that sex had been consensual but, due to circumstances, the alleged victim had got stuck on a rollercoaster she couldn't get off and admit that events were not as she'd initially made out.

The male jurors, 5 or 6 out of 15 I can't remember, were looking at it from the perspective of it happening to their daughter or granddaughter so were more lnclined to find the defendant guilty. The female jurors were more like 'Yeh, he's a dick, but he's not a rapist"

We found him Not Guilty and 10 or so years later I still think that was the right decision. We as a jury did our job.

I have massive reservations about these proposed changes, not least the proposal to reduce a jury from 15 to 12.

Malbecmoron · 09/05/2023 19:40

I've sat on a jury in Scotland where the defendant was accused of rape. We found him guilty but it wasn't straight forward because of the need for corroboration and to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. These are issues in most rape trials. I'm not sure about getting rid of juries but I would like to see more of the reported rapes being prosecuted. I think that's where we should concentrate our efforts.

LlynTegid · 09/05/2023 19:44

I was never happy with juryless trials in Northern Ireland though understood why they were introduced, albeit never intended to be for ever.

Nothing on this thread convinces me that jury less trials are right in this case, the issue comes with those not getting to trial in the first place, in my opinion.