BBC R4 Start the week. Separating art and artist.

[BlackeyedSusan]

JK gets a mention.

Interesting that the presenter corrected the characterisation that JK wrote about transwomen to writing about gender identity.

The theme of the program was separating artists and art.

Ranged over a lot of artists and genre. (Cinema, music,fine art) and often discussed the girls

Woody Allen, Michael Jackson, Gauguin

So JKR gets a mention for having the opinion that women and girls are distinct from men and boys. And men get mentioned for having dubious/abusive relationships with young boys/men/girls/women.

Or did they mention any men who merely expressed opinions that most people would hold?

Yes, that struck me too - the presenter specifically said the issue was about self-ID, not trans women.

It was quite frustrating because I thought they were going to get into a really meaty discussion about this and then they veered off into something else.

I'd already read Kathleen Stock's largely approving review of the book in question - I haven't got a share token, unfortunately:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/monsters-fans-dilemma-claire-dederer-review-7mtgwbjbv

Had to turn the radio off - conversation ranged over various rapists and abusers of women: How do we enjoy a painting by Gaugin of an 11 year old girl that he raped, who died later of the syphillis he gave her? How do we enjoy Woody Allen's 'Manhattan' in which a 40 something Woody Allen character has sex with a school student, who is given lines to justify the relationship; how do we enjoy art by Picasso, who it is suggested mis-treated women, or the work of Bill Cosby, who was accused of multiple rapes?

And then to help us with our perspective, some male commentator argues along the lines (and I paraphrase, I had to change channels fast)
that 'Fans of Harry Potter have managed to enjoy her work even though she hates Transwomen...'

So a rapist whose abuse subsequently kills his victim, is compared JK Rowling's statement that no one should get fired for saying what a Transwoman is - a biological man??? That there used to be a word for Women - that we don't sing 'You make me feel like a natural menstruator'???? That to be a Transwoman the starting point is that you are a man, who suffers from gender dysphoria, and whose solution is to 'transition' in some way?

Is the BBC desperate to have us revoke the license fee????

Did the BBC mention their statue by (pedophile) Eric Gill carved on the front of Broadcasting House?!

@macj1 FWIW, and I am not saying he is or isn't, Bill Cosby has consistently maintained his innocent even to the point of accepting he'd spend ten years in jail than say he did it. And he was released last year due to failures in his trial. Again, I don't know if he is or isn't innocent but his wife has stuck with him throughout and it's perhaps notable that this kicked off as he became something of a conservative figure very critical of African American popular culture. He was and is very much in the mould of Clarence Thomas, Frederick Douglas, etc. I had a conversation with an American friend a couple of years ago about him and she followed it a lot more closely than I did and said his politics was what kicked off a lot of the campaign against him. The accusations were from a long time ago and hadn't been raised before.

Anyway, not super-relevant to this but as you'd used it as one of your examples.

For me it's Roman Polanski. I haven't found Woody Allen funny since I was a kid - his humour is about at that level. And Kevin Spacey I always disliked anyway. But Polanski genuinely is a brilliant director. The Ninth Gate and Fearless Vampire Killers are masterpieces. If his pregnant wife hadn't been murdered the year before perhaps he wouldn't have done what he did, but there's not really any excusing it. So I haven't watched those movies since which is a shame because personally it puts me off to know what I know now. But I wouldn't see it as intrinsically condoning his actions if somebody did. If we take that path then ultimately we're going to have to scrap a lot of great work over the centuries and inevitably will end up being hypocrites over it.

Yeah I always think of Eric Gill too. How many publications use / used Gill Sans font?

Glinner would be a more appropriate comparison to JKR.

Note that Glinner can't have his Father Ted musical staged because of how wonderfully moral the theatre community is.

Upcoming Michael Jackson musical is A-Ok though.

Interesting that the presenter corrected the characterisation that JK wrote about transwomen to writing about gender identity.

There's some context you might be interested in. Start the Week was presented by Tom Sutcliffe who was interviewing a guest who referred to JKR's "views on transwomen" and fast as a scalded cat Sutcliffe intervened to say that her views are about gender identity and self-identification and not about transwomen. Sutcliffe did this because he had previously been taught a lesson:
https://pressgazette.co.uk/the-wire/bbc-front-row/

It shows the value of complaining. However, if anyone is thinking about complaining that in the programme this morning JKR was lumped in with a load of sex abuser men who targeted children you'll probably get nowhere:

The ECU also dismissed another part of the complaint which argued it was inappropriate to discuss Rowling alongside artists such as R. Kelly, Eric Gill and Adolf Hitler, because it was “in the context of distinguishing between expressing opinions (as JK Rowling had done) and committing criminal acts”.

Till recently the bbc logo font was Gill designed too.

I get so fed up when people lump JK in with pedos and rapists.

I just heard some of this now, it's such uncomfortable listening. The fact that people are so willing to overlook criminal behaviour to enjoy the art is sickening. Basically there's very little social pressure for men in the arts to be decent people. It appears that having unpopular political opinions is judged more harshly than being an abuser.

Paedophilia, incest, and even the family dog wasn't safe...

I get so fed up when people lump JK in with pedos and rapists

I felt exasperated listening to the programme. The fault lies with the woman who wrote the book, because she's the one who included JKR in a book that was largely about men who had committed really terrible crimes - Gaugin, for example, who raped little girls, and Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13-year old girl. And then JKR, who committed the heinous crime of speaking out in favour of women-only spaces to protect them against male violence! It is lunacy to include her in a group with Polanski and Gaugin. I think Sutcliffe could have challenged her on that.

File on 4 tonight- sex education in schools

It's being restored according to a new article in The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2023/may/09/eric-gill-was-evil-his-sculpture-at-bbc-headquarters-isnt

I'm pleased Nauticant mentioned the Front Row fiasco. I had always thought Tom Sutcliffe was a bit smug but I have much more respect for him since he appeared on Feedback (before the Complaint Unit's inquiry) to respond to listeners' complaints and to admit he was wrong.

Rachel Cooke in The Observer was much more critical of the book than Kathleen Stock and highlighted the difference between what the men and women featured in the book had done that warranted cancellation.

I know lots of posters don't like The Guardian but this was in The Observer which, as we know, takes a more objective approach to women and gender identity.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/may/07/monsters-a-fans-dilemma-by-claire-dederer-review-whats-your-cancellation-policy

Thanks for adding that review, nettie. I'm surprised that it was featured as "Book of the Week" given how critical it was of Dederer's approach - but a much better and more nuanced take on it than BBC Radio 4's.