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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

The NHS want to know what genitalia I have

83 replies

Annaissleeping · 05/05/2023 14:55

I just had to ask for a home testing STI kit as recently I slept with someone and he took the condom off and pretended he hadn't realised that had happened.

I rang them to confirm some details and they said they needed to know my gender assigned at birth and my current gender. I said I was female and honestly quite flustered, added, I didn't have a gender.

Oh I'm sorry, the woman said, it's just we need to know what genitalia you have to send the right kit.

Not that women's feelings matter, but it felt intrustive - it's not so fun having to go through this process and being asked anything other than 'are you male or female.' But that is from someone whose 'genitalia' suffered an injury in a different assault and who has quite a lot of difficulties getting up the courage to access any medical care and discuss any aspect of my body/physical health. How many people in the UK actually know what assigned gender or genitalia actually means, outside of the gender bubble given the national reading age is about 10/11?!

Thank goodness for a health care service system in evidence-based medicine and objective science, right? 🙄

(I just needed to vent, I know people are aware this is happening)

OP posts:
TurkishClouds · 05/05/2023 16:26

Yep. I don't have a gender or gender identity. It is a political statement. I will continue to make it every time I am asked for either, because accepting the language of gender ideology is tacit acceptance of that ideology. If it makes one person think, it's worth it.

Melroses · 05/05/2023 16:27

Reallybadidea · 05/05/2023 15:33

I'm sorry you had to go through this. I honestly don't understand why they can't just say "are you male or female? Are you transgender?" then if the person says they are transgender then they can go through all the genital stuff with them. Inclusive without all the nonsense about gender/sex being assigned at birth.

This.

Everything is become needlessly complicated and intrusive and it all makes it difficult for people to do their jobs.

Why the need to get people talking about their genitals all the time. There are, unfortunately for the clinic, too many ready to give TMI over the phone. 😬

IwantToRetire · 05/05/2023 16:28

But I'm most furious about the fact you were raped. "Stealthing" is illegal in the UK. Please access support for yourself and consider reporting if you feel strong enough.

Can all those who are being so censorious of OP have the decency to understand what has happened to her. Putting the onus of her to placate a captured bureaucracy is disgusting at any time, but worse still in her situation.

I feel am reading on more and threads on FWR comments that are so anti woman, and lacking in empathy, and find it really disturbing.

Twoshoesnewshoes · 05/05/2023 16:29

OP im really sorry that happened to you
💐
and yes, ridiculous questions.
can’t they just ask which test do you need, for penis or vagina?
then no one gets confused or validated

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 05/05/2023 16:33

cosmiccosmos · 05/05/2023 16:20

If someone asked me what gender I was assigned at birth, I would say I don't understand and ask them to explain. I would say I wasn't assigned anything. If someone asked me my gender I would say I didn't have one. I would continue until they asked me what my actual sex is.

Women need to push back on this now. If the NHS want to go along with this ridiculousness then they should accept people like me asking questions. If trans people don't even know their sex then that is their problem to sort out with their healthcare provider, I don't want additional paperwork, stupid questions etc when I am a straight forward ahf.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

wagonwheel23 · 05/05/2023 16:34

literalviolence · 05/05/2023 16:24

But the worker was not asking about her body (sex) she was asking about her mind (gender). I would not want to answer such a question for fear that they put something on my notes which suggests I adhere to old-fashioned stereotypes. If they want to know sex, ask about sex. They are making a political statement by asking the question. Don't ask a political question and then expect a biological answer. They caused confusion!

Show quote history

I wonder if the worker herself just didn't know the difference or got the terminology wrong. God knows all this sex/ gender stuff is complicated at the moment.

Not saying that's good practice but I think OP knew what the worker wanted to know. She could have just answered that she is female and always has been.

By being vague she made it complicated. The worker was confused and then asked about genitalia to clarify.

Fanacapan · 05/05/2023 16:55

Honestly, we walk on egg shells in the NHS in case we say the wrong thing and offend someone! We have been instructed to refer to pregnant people, just in case!

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 05/05/2023 16:58

The onus to communicate clearly is on the health care professional, who has (supposedly) been trained to talk to distressed patients, and is currently being paid to do so.

It is not on the patient phoning the STI clinic, who may potentially be ringing after a very traumatic event.

Helleofabore · 05/05/2023 17:01

OP I am so sorry. This is a traumatic time for you, I hope that you receive the support that you need.

I think that if you ever feel up to it, that NHS trust needs to have the feedback that they have prioritised the language the wrong way. They do need to speak using plain English language. There have been great recommendations for a sensitive way to do this already.

What a terrible situation we are in that asking the very first question, are you male or female is to be substituted for language that is less clear and is confusing. If people were honest about their sex, then of course all that needs to be asked is if a person is a trans person or a person who has a DSS, or not. It can be worded in a way that is sensitive to these groups. Then if the answer is 'yes', questions can be asked about genitals in a clear and precise way.

PuttingDownRoots · 05/05/2023 17:02
  1. Ask what name (and pronoun) they would like the kit to be registered to.
  2. Ask what type of kit, male or female, ir penis or vaginal, will be required.

There are ways around this.

Helleofabore · 05/05/2023 17:02

For those with medical backgrounds, does an organ constructed from an inverted penis or a section of other body organ get tested the exact same way as a vagina? Do STIs effect those constructed organs the exact same way?

Is there special testing to be done for those post-surgical patients?

EggInANest · 05/05/2023 17:07

And this is the problem.

Women cannot just say ‘I am a woman/ I am female’, but have to be interrogated about the ins and outs. Sic.

Why cannot Transwomen/ men just say ‘I am a trans woman with a penis / neo vagina’?

FFS.

ShowUs · 05/05/2023 17:11

BanjoKnickers · 05/05/2023 15:42

Your genitalia are definitely important when it comes to STI testing. And I guess they're trying to avoid confusion in case people don't understand the various permutations of assigned at birth, sex, gender, non-binary etc. Or perhaps they need to adapt the tests if you've had surgery to alter your genitals. It seems a very reasonable question to me. If you're having an STI test then you are going to be asked quite a lot of questions that don't get asked when you buy a coffee.

I agree.

I have read things were a female born woman will say she’s a male on these forms as that’s how she identifies (not having the intelligence to think about the implications this may have when it comes to treatment such as cervical smears or prostate examinations).

So the NHS and I’m sure others need to be really specific.

Its not the person on the end of the phones fault and she probably feels it’s just as ridiculous as we do.

Buzzinwithbez · 05/05/2023 17:15

Fanacapan · 05/05/2023 16:55

Honestly, we walk on egg shells in the NHS in case we say the wrong thing and offend someone! We have been instructed to refer to pregnant people, just in case!

I'm so glad I had my babies at a time I was just a woman, not a pregnant person.

Twoshoesnewshoes · 05/05/2023 17:16

You know, the more I think about it, the more I can see is that the onus is on the patient to define any less usual presentations, in a situation like this.
NHS can ask do you need the male or female kit?
the patient can say , or go into more detail if needed.
I note that the NHS person did not ask if the kit was needed in a different language/ Braille/ simple English etc. In short interactions like this, the onus is on the person to ask specifically. And that should apply to everyone. Either cover all possible additional needs, or none, otherwise it feels discriminatory.

MagpiePi · 05/05/2023 17:32

I note that the NHS person did not ask if the kit was needed in a different language/ Braille/ simple English etc. In short interactions like this, the onus is on the person to ask specifically. And that should apply to everyone. Either cover all possible additional needs, or none, otherwise it feels discriminatory.

It doesn't matter if anyone else is not made to feel inclusive anymore. All that matters is making sure a tiny minority of ideologues are not upset in any way, because it is literal violence and evidence that everyone wants trans genocide.
I have so had enough of this bullshit.

hotdiggetydog · 05/05/2023 17:33

YetAnotherSpartacus · 05/05/2023 15:46

Your genitalia are definitely important when it comes to STI testing. And I guess they're trying to avoid confusion in case people don't understand the various permutations of assigned at birth, sex, gender, non-binary etc. Or perhaps they need to adapt the tests if you've had surgery to alter your genitals. It seems a very reasonable question to me. If you're having an STI test then you are going to be asked quite a lot of questions that don't get asked when you buy a coffee

oh for goodness sake. Male and female used to cover this nicely and simply before all this other rubbish language complicated things. Now women have to answer silly and intrusive questions just to appease ideologues.

"all this other rubbish" 😭

OrbandSpectacle · 05/05/2023 17:35

It now feels like an actual biological woman is a minority subset of their own sex!

Igmum · 05/05/2023 17:40

So sorry you've gone through this OP. I think you should complain. This sort of questioning is likely to cause unnecessary embarrassment to women. Sending Flowers

shammalammadingdong · 05/05/2023 17:46

WetBandits · 05/05/2023 15:59

Sorry OP but we really do have to ask. You could be someone who says they are a woman but who actually has a penis, in which case you might be sent the wrong kit if we didn’t confirm what genitals you actually have.

Penis = pee in a pot and vagina = swab.

If this was for an orthopaedic appointment, for example, then I wouldn’t be answering that question either, but sexual health is literally all about genitalia so we do need to know what genitals you have.

So you do not actrually have to ask "what is your current gender and what gender were you assigned at birth"? Not at all.

You need to ask what sex you are. Which has not and cannot change

Original poster
Annaissleeping · 05/05/2023 17:48

Thank you for all the kind responses, I hadn't expected any at all because this isn't that out the ordinary really. I'm not seeing the man in question anymore, don't worry, he is completely out of the picture.

I read some of these responses and wondered quite how to reply (and whether it was worth it). But I think it's important to document a couple of things for the sake of people who don't get it.

First of all, I was NOT wanting to make a political point in that phone calll. I have done so in the past on various online forms (along the lines of answering 'my sex is female' when asked my gender). This was not about being stroppy or difficult, this was a stressful phone call. She genuinely took me aback at a time I was on edge. I was polite and she sounded apologetic when saying she needed to know my genitalia - it's not her fault as an individual. I probably sounded confused and upset briefly if anything, certainly not cross or annoyed. I was just trying to get through the call and get my kit because I've been stupid and not got tested as quickly as I should due to previous trauma and I just want reassurance now I'm ok. I'm pretty worried tbh, I have a couple of small wounds that aren't healing and am fretting a bit that something is underlying this.

She needed to know my genitalia ....absolutely. I understand that. Asking someone if they are male or female covers that. If someone has had fgm then clearly it might affect how someone manages home testing - but I have a British name and no foreign accent so it's unlikely to be an issue for me. If I had had any trans related surgery to my genitals....well surely a patient needs to go into such an operation being prepared to disclose it to healthcare providers in all future sexual health screenings given they are risking having lifelong complications. The onus is on those individuals.

Being asked what was in my underwear would have been insignificant small talk.

I sustained a minor injury to my genitals years ago in a sexual assault. 😔By a medical professional in a medical setting. I'm very happy you don't find these conversations a big deal. I do. It is very uncomfortable disclosing that here mostly because I don't like trauma dumping and worry someone else reading that will be upset based on their own bad experiences. It is private to me (I will go and name change and have a cry having written that down). It is very difficult for me to access health care related to my sexual health. No medical person should be making this harder for people in my shoes. 'We need to know your genitalia' was momentarily dehumanising to be honest. No big deal, I will survive it, but in the moment, it was.

Not saying that's good practice but I think OP knew what the worker wanted to know. She could have just answered that she is female and always has been. By being vague she made it complicated. The worker was confused and then asked about genitalia to clarify.

Do you think writing that is pretty shit bearing in mind the above? This phone call took me aback. I wasn't particularly mentally sharp during it bearing in mind I was anxious so rather blurted out 'I don't have a gender'. It wasn't said to make the person calling me uncomfortable.

Apologies if this post is tmi. I am going to need to calm myself down having written it but I am ok, I just felt it was important to be very open in this post because this is the reality of the impact this stupid ideology has.

OP posts:
RufustheSpecuIatingreindeer · 05/05/2023 17:53

annaissleeping

💐

RufustheSpecuIatingreindeer · 05/05/2023 17:54

Not saying that's good practice but I think OP knew what the worker wanted to know. She could have just answered that she is female and always has been. By being vague she made it complicated. The worker was confused and then asked about genitalia to clarify

A) she did say she was female

B) once female always female

literalviolence · 05/05/2023 18:25

Annaissleeping · 05/05/2023 17:48

Thank you for all the kind responses, I hadn't expected any at all because this isn't that out the ordinary really. I'm not seeing the man in question anymore, don't worry, he is completely out of the picture.

I read some of these responses and wondered quite how to reply (and whether it was worth it). But I think it's important to document a couple of things for the sake of people who don't get it.

First of all, I was NOT wanting to make a political point in that phone calll. I have done so in the past on various online forms (along the lines of answering 'my sex is female' when asked my gender). This was not about being stroppy or difficult, this was a stressful phone call. She genuinely took me aback at a time I was on edge. I was polite and she sounded apologetic when saying she needed to know my genitalia - it's not her fault as an individual. I probably sounded confused and upset briefly if anything, certainly not cross or annoyed. I was just trying to get through the call and get my kit because I've been stupid and not got tested as quickly as I should due to previous trauma and I just want reassurance now I'm ok. I'm pretty worried tbh, I have a couple of small wounds that aren't healing and am fretting a bit that something is underlying this.

She needed to know my genitalia ....absolutely. I understand that. Asking someone if they are male or female covers that. If someone has had fgm then clearly it might affect how someone manages home testing - but I have a British name and no foreign accent so it's unlikely to be an issue for me. If I had had any trans related surgery to my genitals....well surely a patient needs to go into such an operation being prepared to disclose it to healthcare providers in all future sexual health screenings given they are risking having lifelong complications. The onus is on those individuals.

Being asked what was in my underwear would have been insignificant small talk.

I sustained a minor injury to my genitals years ago in a sexual assault. 😔By a medical professional in a medical setting. I'm very happy you don't find these conversations a big deal. I do. It is very uncomfortable disclosing that here mostly because I don't like trauma dumping and worry someone else reading that will be upset based on their own bad experiences. It is private to me (I will go and name change and have a cry having written that down). It is very difficult for me to access health care related to my sexual health. No medical person should be making this harder for people in my shoes. 'We need to know your genitalia' was momentarily dehumanising to be honest. No big deal, I will survive it, but in the moment, it was.

Not saying that's good practice but I think OP knew what the worker wanted to know. She could have just answered that she is female and always has been. By being vague she made it complicated. The worker was confused and then asked about genitalia to clarify.

Do you think writing that is pretty shit bearing in mind the above? This phone call took me aback. I wasn't particularly mentally sharp during it bearing in mind I was anxious so rather blurted out 'I don't have a gender'. It wasn't said to make the person calling me uncomfortable.

Apologies if this post is tmi. I am going to need to calm myself down having written it but I am ok, I just felt it was important to be very open in this post because this is the reality of the impact this stupid ideology has.

Hugs OP. You've been through terrible things and the system is now using you as a pawn in a bid to pander to powerful men. No wonder you feel unsettled. The dehumanising is not just in the question. It's in the motivation behind the question. There are lots of women and indeed men qho see this for what it is and still know how to respect women. Please hang on to that.

Ourladycheesusedatum · 05/05/2023 18:26

BanjoKnickers · 05/05/2023 15:55

Now women have to answer silly and intrusive questions just to appease ideologues.

Oh for goodness sake, it's a clinic for willies, fannies and the clap. Last time I went I was asked all about my sexual history, what I liked doing in the bedroom and then had things inserted into orifices by someone I'd only known for five minutes. Being asked what was in my underwear would have been insignificant small talk.

How many times have you been

Completely misses point of thread, but I've never been.