Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Still Genuinely Willing To Discuss In Good Faith

1000 replies

Catiette · 30/04/2023 11:43

I've taken the plunge and started a new thread. In the interests of good manners, an addendum that I may be disappearing to work for a while myself, as this has all been far too interesting to allow me to achieve any of my urgent weekend work to-dos today - I hope that, in the light of that, creating this follow-up thread isn't bad form. I just thought other people may want to continue discussing these issues (mainly, now, the redefinition of woman, and statistical trends re. women globally), and I'd definitely dip back in when the urge to procrastinate overcomes me next. No worries, of course, if people think we did it all to death on the old thread - we were fairly thorough, methinks(!), so can also just let Good Faith Discussion #2 rapidly fade into Mumsnet obscurity. 😀

OP posts:
Thread gallery
48
Kucinghitam · 01/05/2023 06:27

Even if people were to accept the (entirely unprovable metaphysical pseudo-religious) premise that body dysphoria is caused by a special something that has somehow "got" into the "wrong body" in order to experience the dysphoria:

(1) For consistency, if the special something could end up in the wrong sex body, it could also end up in the wrong height, age, race, nationality, eye-colour, weight, number of limbs, etc body.
(2) Is there any other type of dysphoria in which the rest of society is expected to re-order itself, mangle its language, change its laws, deny reality, and unquestioningly affirm the sufferer?

PriOn1 · 01/05/2023 06:35

I very much appreciate the discussion about the term “mother” as it has always concerned me that I had no real answer when that analogy was raised. However I see now that it is quite a good analogy. There is a core definition of what the word mother means (a woman who has given birth) and various other claims made to motherhood, some of which are legally mandated and some of which have gained general societal acceptance over time.

Those other definitions still rely however, either on that legal mandate or on “be kind”. Lots of people recognize inherently that it would be unkind to point out that those women are not really mothers by its core meaning, but that through their actions, have earned the title of mother. If challenged then, most people would acknowledge that this is an honorary title.

When the mantra “Transwomen are women” was first in use, it was understood by most to be asserting a similarly honorary position. Everyone knew that transwomen were not women, but that it was kind to acknowledge them as such. The basis of my understanding here was that this was a medical condition, for which there was a treatment that not only involved physical medical intervention, but for success, required that others in society played along. Many of us, at that point, would have argued that transwomen were women, but that was always in full understanding that this was only in an honorary sense, and that, if push came to shove and it really mattered, that it would be acknowledged that they were not.

So the problem has arisen because it has become apparent over time, that being acknowledged as honorary women is no longer acceptable to some men who claim they are women. That goes hand in hand with the attempted obliteration of the shared understanding that “if push came to shove and it really mattered, that it would be acknowledged that they were not.” In addition, it is now being pushed that there is no need for a man to experience gender dysphoria to claim womanhood. It is simply his right to do so, if he feels like it.

And it is these men, who no longer accept that honorary womanhood is enough who are currently leading the demands for legal and social changes.

Rather than accepting that women have needs that should be met in addition to the separate but equal needs of men who claim they are women, they are attempting both legally and socially to force their own desire to invade women’s spaces and extend all women’s rights to themselves on us all. And that is why those women who recognise what is happening, are beginning to object, in larger and larger numbers.

So can I ask, Spooky, do you really believe that transwomen are women in an absolutist way and that there can never be any distinction made? Logically, if you believe transwomen are women, then you believe that they belong in women’s prisons by right, for example, and that any exclusion of them can never be because of an acknowledgement of their different sex, but must always be done on the basis of exactly the same assessment as other women regarding risk factors and so on.

And it would then follow that transwomen, as actual women, must belong in women’s sports and thus any rules that discriminate against them based on physical factors can only depend on height, weight or age or any other means that are currently used to distinguish different groupings within one sex. Acknowledgment that there are physical differences between the sexes would not be a valid reason to exclude them as they are women, regardless of their sex.

Because this is, in my opinion the reason that the absolutist version “transwomen are [literally] women” is now being pushed in place of the previous understanding that “transwomen are [honorary] women”. It’s because if we acknowledge that some men literally are women, then exclusion becomes inherently unfair in any and all situations and then we are left scrabbling for reasons to exclude them that would apply equally to any woman.

And not only is that a very difficult task in itself if we are not allowed to use sex as a reason (given that women can, by definition now be male or female) but we might then end up excluding some adult human females from spaces or rights that previously would have been theirs automatically on the basis of their sex.

In simple terms, the insistence that transwomen are women is an attempt to change the meaning of the word “women” in law, because changing the meaning of that word is actually easier than changing the laws themselves. It’s an attempted short cut, not to introduce separate but equal rights, but for those men (or transwomen if you prefer that term) to redefine themselves legally into a group they don’t belong in (in my opinion) to the detriment of those women who previously had those rights.

Do you see any of the problems here as being important in the question of whether we should accept the redefinition of the word women to include some men?

BonfireLady · 01/05/2023 07:04

Nellodee · 01/05/2023 06:12

Occam’s razor principle is that the simplest explanation is the best. For gender dysphoria, you have come to the conclusion of a mind body mismatch, requiring the assumption off these two things both being equally real and more importantly, completely separate. The other solution is that this is a brain function gone awry somehow, as others have said, in the manner of anorexia.
For me, the abnormal brain function explanation is the much simpler one, that where there is a mismatch between “mind” and body, between conceptual and concrete, it is always the mind which is demonstrably not aligned with reality.
This is not to say that the feelings are not genuine or that eradicating these feeling is always possible. Sometimes it may be more feasible to treat the discomfort the feelings cause, rather than try to lessen the feelings themselves, and I leave this judgement to the people involved and their medical professionals - so long as children and very young adults are not involved.

@Nellodee and @Kucinghitam I'm going to comment on this comment and the one immediately below it together if that's OK.

@Nellodee This makes a lot of sense to me. When I read up on gender dysphoria, one of my earliest thoughts was that it would be a lot simpler if it was (still) classed as a mental health issue. Unfortunately the conflation of the T with the LGB is that undid this from what I can see. I should imagine pretty much everyone on this board (I hope) would be appalled to see homosexuality and bisexuality still classed as a mental health issue.

What sets it apart from the rest @Kucinghitam (point 1) is a consistency throughout history and across cultures, mainly involving (incredibly small numbers of) pre-pubescent boys. Hannah Barnes book Time to Think examined this really well I thought. As does Sue and Marcus Evans book on a therapeutic approach for gender dysphoria. For a very small number of an incredibly small number of people with gender dysphoria, transition may be the only answer at the end of a therapeutic pathway of exploration. Hence the mental health classification being of vital importance.

@Kucinghitam re point 2, this is where the belief versus fact comes in to play I think. It involves a much bigger pool of people because the numbers impacted by gender dysphoria really are small. However, it's impossible to say who has gender dysphoria, who is caught up (unknowingly) in a belief that will lead them to harm (detransitioners' stories are very relevant here) and who is a genuinely happy believer in gender identity but doesn't have gender dysphoria (the best example I can think of is people like the gender benders from the 80s - the new romantics etc. This is the closest I can think of to the fluidity and spectrum of gender in the way that gender identity is positioned today). The difference between the new romantics and those who believe in gender identity today is that they didn't give their "identity" a name, they just expressed themselves within their sex category, pushing the boundaries of gender stereotypes within it.

IMO if it were universally accepted that a gendered self is a belief not a fact, it would help to address the large numbers of people who believe they have gender dysphoria when they don't. Because it's positioned as fact, many people (particularly adolescent girls, adolescents who are unsure about their sexuality and adolescents who are autistic - sometimes all 3 combined) are drawn to a belief on the basis that it is science.

After much research, listening to LGBT people one on one and soul searching, I don't believe I have a gender identity. But I accept and support the fact that others do. But I don't accept that belief impacting others, whether that's children unknowingly entering a medical pathway with lifelong irresponsible consequences, fairness in sport and so on (add lesbians being told to accept girldick, gay men being implicitly told they are probably actually girls, trans widows being told that they need to get used to lesbian life and a shared role of motherhood etc etc).

BonfireLady · 01/05/2023 07:06

Oops, a few typos and some missing apostrophes above. Anyway, hopefully readable.

BonfireLady · 01/05/2023 07:08

*lifelong irreversible consequences.

That one definitely needed correcting!

Note to self: re-read the entire comment before posting 🤦‍♀️

SpookyFBI · 01/05/2023 07:15

AlisonDonut · 01/05/2023 06:04

When you say 'the vast majority' which data set are you using as no gender clinics are tracking their patients?

Can you please answer my two questions?

Both are pretty easy if you believe in this 'identify as' stuff surely?

Alison, I am here to share my perspective and understand the perspectives of others. I am not here to get into an argument or try to prove anything. As such I am electing only to engage with people who show a genuine interest in understanding my perspective, and as I have found your posts to be argumentative, I have elected not to engage with you.

but to answer your first question on this post for the benefit of others who may have the same question, I am referring to the stance of the American Psychiatric Association on gender dysphoria

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

Wellies54 · 01/05/2023 07:27

@PriOn1 I thought that was a really good explanation.

Also, if a woman is described as the mother of a child she has not given birth to, we can still very clearly define what this means. 'To mother' is described in the online dictionary as 'bring up (a child) with care and affection'. All mothers have a child at the centre of the definition, whether they gave birth or brought up the child or both.

But if we consider that it is possible for someone who is not biologically a woman 'to woman', the same dictionary says; 'a person with the qualities traditionally associated with females', but it doesn't define these qualities. I have thought quite a lot about what it might be that could define 'being a woman' in any other way than biology, but there simply isn't!

There is no one quality or one action which can be said to be true about all women or transwomen which cannot also be said about all humans.

BonfireLady · 01/05/2023 07:28

SpookyFBI · 01/05/2023 04:19

I do completely agree, to answer your other post as well, in the separation of church and state. I guess where I’m coming from is that I wouldn’t see this as a spiritual believe, but more as a crude attempt at an explanation for a phenomenon that has been observed and that experts in the field agree exists - gender dysphoria. Now, if you don’t agree that gender dysphoria exists then I don’t really know where to go from there. In the same way that I am not a sport scientist and so I am willing to accept what experts in the field say on the matter, I am not a psychologist, but multiple expert psychologists do verify that gender dysphoria exists, so this isn’t a spiritual belief but a verified fact. So if gender dysphoria exists, then there must be something experiencing that dysphoria. This is not really a belief, but a logical conclusion of the evidence.

now, what exactly that thing is, how it operates, what causes the disconnect in some but not in others… this (as far as I’m aware) is where evidence ends and belief takes over. I have absolutely no expectation that there will be any kind of consensus on this which is why I’m happy to use multiple different words to describe it. I started off calling it ‘identity’, then someone else used ‘essence’, I also brought up ‘soul’ because I thought that might help some people understand what I’m talking about, and if you want to call it ‘mind’ that works just as well. Exactly what my beliefs are about this thing, whatever you call it, are a work in progress, which is why I’m so interested to hear other perspectives about it. This is actually the thing I wanted to discuss when I first joined the original good faith discussion thread. This is in my opinion one of the big, ‘meaning of life’ type questions that fascinates me, and I feel like I’m always refining my understanding of it the more perspectives on it I hear.

so to answer your final question in this post, yes - mind, soul, thoughts/feelings, I’m not sure what the best terminology is - given the fact that gender dysphoria exists, there must be something that experiences gender separately from the sex of the body.

I'm scrolling backwards to where I left off last night.

@SpookyFBI this makes a lot of sense to me. The therapy book I referenced above (Sue and Marcus Evans) on gender dysphoria was one of the earliest things I read during my exploration of gender identity. My conclusion was that gender dysphoria is real. I read the book because I was facing the very real fact that my autistic daughter was demanding puberty blockers and the NHS stated that there was no consensus on their safety, either psychologically or physically. I also had a huge intuition that my daughter's gender incongruence was related to her autism and her distress at her changing body. At the time I was totally unaware of what was being taught in schools and discussed by adolescents online, so this had no influence on how I understood gender dysphoria. I was so disconnected from the topic that I had no idea that what JKR was saying about the word woman had any relevance to what I was reading about gender dysphoria.

AlisonDonut · 01/05/2023 07:29

So no answer to:
How do we know if men are lying?
Why a mother can be anyone even if they have no children?
Where the data set that you are using as evidence of X comes from?

You can't come to a good faith discussion thread and just call anyone asking questions aggressive rather than have the good grace to say 'Actually there is no answer, I cannot explain it and there is no data'.

Kucinghitam · 01/05/2023 07:33

PriOn1 · 01/05/2023 06:35

I very much appreciate the discussion about the term “mother” as it has always concerned me that I had no real answer when that analogy was raised. However I see now that it is quite a good analogy. There is a core definition of what the word mother means (a woman who has given birth) and various other claims made to motherhood, some of which are legally mandated and some of which have gained general societal acceptance over time.

Those other definitions still rely however, either on that legal mandate or on “be kind”. Lots of people recognize inherently that it would be unkind to point out that those women are not really mothers by its core meaning, but that through their actions, have earned the title of mother. If challenged then, most people would acknowledge that this is an honorary title.

When the mantra “Transwomen are women” was first in use, it was understood by most to be asserting a similarly honorary position. Everyone knew that transwomen were not women, but that it was kind to acknowledge them as such. The basis of my understanding here was that this was a medical condition, for which there was a treatment that not only involved physical medical intervention, but for success, required that others in society played along. Many of us, at that point, would have argued that transwomen were women, but that was always in full understanding that this was only in an honorary sense, and that, if push came to shove and it really mattered, that it would be acknowledged that they were not.

So the problem has arisen because it has become apparent over time, that being acknowledged as honorary women is no longer acceptable to some men who claim they are women. That goes hand in hand with the attempted obliteration of the shared understanding that “if push came to shove and it really mattered, that it would be acknowledged that they were not.” In addition, it is now being pushed that there is no need for a man to experience gender dysphoria to claim womanhood. It is simply his right to do so, if he feels like it.

And it is these men, who no longer accept that honorary womanhood is enough who are currently leading the demands for legal and social changes.

Rather than accepting that women have needs that should be met in addition to the separate but equal needs of men who claim they are women, they are attempting both legally and socially to force their own desire to invade women’s spaces and extend all women’s rights to themselves on us all. And that is why those women who recognise what is happening, are beginning to object, in larger and larger numbers.

So can I ask, Spooky, do you really believe that transwomen are women in an absolutist way and that there can never be any distinction made? Logically, if you believe transwomen are women, then you believe that they belong in women’s prisons by right, for example, and that any exclusion of them can never be because of an acknowledgement of their different sex, but must always be done on the basis of exactly the same assessment as other women regarding risk factors and so on.

And it would then follow that transwomen, as actual women, must belong in women’s sports and thus any rules that discriminate against them based on physical factors can only depend on height, weight or age or any other means that are currently used to distinguish different groupings within one sex. Acknowledgment that there are physical differences between the sexes would not be a valid reason to exclude them as they are women, regardless of their sex.

Because this is, in my opinion the reason that the absolutist version “transwomen are [literally] women” is now being pushed in place of the previous understanding that “transwomen are [honorary] women”. It’s because if we acknowledge that some men literally are women, then exclusion becomes inherently unfair in any and all situations and then we are left scrabbling for reasons to exclude them that would apply equally to any woman.

And not only is that a very difficult task in itself if we are not allowed to use sex as a reason (given that women can, by definition now be male or female) but we might then end up excluding some adult human females from spaces or rights that previously would have been theirs automatically on the basis of their sex.

In simple terms, the insistence that transwomen are women is an attempt to change the meaning of the word “women” in law, because changing the meaning of that word is actually easier than changing the laws themselves. It’s an attempted short cut, not to introduce separate but equal rights, but for those men (or transwomen if you prefer that term) to redefine themselves legally into a group they don’t belong in (in my opinion) to the detriment of those women who previously had those rights.

Do you see any of the problems here as being important in the question of whether we should accept the redefinition of the word women to include some men?

This is a really good explanation of the situation, and why the "mother" analogy doesn't work for me.

AlisonDonut · 01/05/2023 07:40

This is a really good explanation of the situation, and why the "mother" analogy doesn't work for me.

@Kucinghitam Can you explain why the mother analogy doesn't work for you?

Because @PriOn1 said 'this explains why the analogy works' and yet you say it is a good explanation of why it doesn't.

SpookyFBI · 01/05/2023 07:43

OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit · 30/04/2023 21:52

If there is such a thing as 'gendered soul' who come only some people get them? I have absolutely no sense of gender.
I don't mean that my 'gender' matches my sex I mean I don't feel any different in jeans, trainers and a hoodie watching football than if I am wearing a dress, make up and heels and having a 'girls' night out. I do lots of 'female' things - crafting, baking, I like wearing dresses & skirts and have a fairly extensive (heeled) shoe collection. But I'm also a total sports nut, I hate pink, I do plenty of DIY and Theresa May would be horrified to discover that I'm the one who puts the bins out chez Otters. I just feel like me regardless of whether I am drinking a pint or a cocktail. So why do some people get an unmatched gender, some get a matched gender and some people get nothing at all?
Would the men who feel they are women in the 21st century have felt that in 18th century when men wore make-up, wigs, heels and flamboyant clothes? Or is their gender actually just a love of 'pretty' things and because the current stereotypes regards these things as feminine they are extrapolating that they must have a female 'gender'. If we removed all notions that certain thing are not for men or not for women would some men still feel like women? Even if all women and all men wore moon boots and boiler suits and make-up and had long hair?

I would maintain that there is a difference between gender identity and gender stereotypes. Going back to the mother example, I can feel like a mother without conforming to motherly stereotypes. A trans woman can identify as a woman without conforming to gender stereotypes. Some do anyway. Some don’t. Just like some biological women adhere to stereotypes and some don’t.

There are indeed people out there who have the experience of not feeling like they are male or female, and some of these people use the term ‘non-binary’ to describe their experiences. I am not in any way suggesting that you should use this term to apply to yourself, it is entirely up to you to decide whether or not you relate to the experiences of these people, I am only bringing up the fact that these people exist for informational purposes

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

As to why some people have a gender identity that matches their biological sex, some have a gender identity that doesn’t match their biological sex, and some have an identity which doesn’t have a male or female gender… your guess is as good as mine, more research is needed.

Non-binary gender - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

PurpleBugz · 01/05/2023 07:44

@SpookyFBI

I would please be very interested in a reference for the research you mentioned showing transition improves quality of life? please

BonfireLady · 01/05/2023 07:48

Just to let back on one point if I may @SpookyFBI (I've added your italics back in when I used bold as for me, this word is the key bit):

so to answer your final question in this post, yes - mind, soul, thoughts/feelings, I’m not sure what the best terminology is - given the fact that gender dysphoria exists, there must be something that experiences gender separately from the sex of the body

Yes, I also think there must be something in it. I have no idea what it is but I do agree with you. Reading Helen Joyce's book Trans helped me understand more about the cultural and historical side of it but nobody can provide an absolute answer from what I can see. This is exactly why it comes down to belief for me and why I compare gender identity to religion in my head.

I was religiously agnostic for years because I couldn't figure out how I had a soul (my feelings, my desires, my memories etc) if it wasn't divine intervention. There must be something. I still can't figure out what that something is but after about 10 years of trying, including a chat with a brilliant vicar, the reason I'm now an atheist is because I've decided that I'm OK with not knowing. I feel the same about not having an answer for that something in relation to gender identity. My pathway from gender identity agnostic to not believing I had a gender identity was much quicker, simply because of the intense focus I put on it all so that I could support my daughter from a well rounded viewpoint. Incidentally my autistic daughter doesn't know my views on gender identity yet because I haven't needed to tell her. I felt it was important that I stayed neutral on this so that I could listen to her thoughts.

(My other daughter does but I only broached it in the last few days, having gained confidence to do so from this thread and the steel-manning one)

Fairislefandango · 01/05/2023 07:51

”…. but the difference as I see it is - do you see a trans woman as a man who happens to identify differently to other men, or a woman who happens to have a different body to other women? I see a trans woman as a woman who happens to have been born in a different body”

But this relies on the notion of a soul, or of some kind of free-floating 'essence' that gets plonked into one of a range of possible bodies at birth. There is not a shred of evidence that any such thing exists. You are your body. There is nothing about you that isn't part of your body. Where is your personality and where are your experiences and memories and sense of self, if not in your brain, which is part of your body?

sanluca · 01/05/2023 07:59

SpookyFBI, I can see where you are coming from with regard to gender identity and gender dysphoria, but can I conclude it is a belief system? You and many others believe in your gender identity and you express your gender identity in a certain way and live by it as it makes sense to you.

But can you explain why your belief system needs to dictate law, even when there are many non believers out there? And also dictate law in such a way that non believers may not have any room to live their lives as they see fit but get cut off from public and private supplied services and facilities, thereby hindering them from participating in society?

Helleofabore · 01/05/2023 08:28

SpookyFBI · 01/05/2023 05:03

I would draw a distinction between things like self harm and anorexia, and things like hormone therapy or transition. People who engage in self harm, and people who suffer from anorexia, would be the first to tell you that these conditions are not enhancing their lives, and are in fact greatly reducing their quality of life. By contrast, the vast majority of people who undergo transition report that it has greatly enhanced their quality of life compared to before they transitioned. On this basis I would place hormone therapy and surgical transition in the same category as someone dying their hair, or getting a tattoo or a piercing, or getting a tubal ligation or a vasectomy to prevent pregnancy. Yes, it’s a more extreme form of modification, but I don’t think that necessarily means that it’s harmful.

Would you have links to the studies Spooky?

Or are you just telling us what you have read and heard from some trans people and maybe they’re heavily invested doctors/lobby groups etc without verifying that yourself?

Because when you speak to the clinicians who are genuinely worried after long periods of working with trans people, the statement :

By contrast, the vast majority of people who undergo transition report that it has greatly enhanced their quality of life compared to before they transitioned.”

seems to be very much under contention.

For many there is an initial period of euphoria after a transition treatment starts (eg. Hormones) and then after a while, that wears off and the person feels the need to do another and this cycles around.

The issue spooky is “long term” studies that are conducted by the actual clinics themselves or via the clinics (as opposed to a questionnaire done on line without verification etc) are very rare. The last one I saw was one from accross the European continent and was a survey done that was around 10 + years or more after. And this was not then including this ‘bump’ with huge numbers of young female transitioners which now make up the majority.

The study showed there was about 8.8% for male and 8.3% for female ex surgical patients had detransitioned. It didn’t state the specific surgery, just gender surgery. I can find it for you if you would like.

It also showed about 22% non surgical patients had ‘desisted’ if I remember correctly. Meaning that they were pre-surgery detransitioners.

There is also the reports from trans people even now where they realise they have made the wrong decision (contrapoints seems to be one at this moment who is voicing this), they realise they are never going to achieve what they desired or was maybe led to believe by others in the community, but will not detransition because they are too heavy invested. But they have significant regrets.

The clinicians who started raising the alarm told the world that mental health does not improve, after the initial euphoria, the patients at the clinic reported just as poor mental health after that initial euphoric period. There was a study done by a researcher in Yale on a Swedish transition cohort who made the conclusion there was improvement, they had to correct their study because people reading the data pointed out that the conclusion of improved mental health was false. The data didn’t show that at all.

When the study came out it was lauded and we saw it supporting many arguments. There has been nothing that was credible released since.

So, I would really like to know what you have to back up your statement.

Because I suspect it is not supported in the strength you have claimed it. And to be fair, you may be repeating what heavily invested people with influence are saying that has not been backed up with credible evidence.

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction

This is the notice of correction of the Richard Branstrom (The Karolinska Institute) and John E. Pachankis from Yale. I believe further links are in the article. Happy to go through it with you and happy to dig up the other long term European study too.

Helleofabore · 01/05/2023 08:31

Kucinghitam · 01/05/2023 06:27

Even if people were to accept the (entirely unprovable metaphysical pseudo-religious) premise that body dysphoria is caused by a special something that has somehow "got" into the "wrong body" in order to experience the dysphoria:

(1) For consistency, if the special something could end up in the wrong sex body, it could also end up in the wrong height, age, race, nationality, eye-colour, weight, number of limbs, etc body.
(2) Is there any other type of dysphoria in which the rest of society is expected to re-order itself, mangle its language, change its laws, deny reality, and unquestioningly affirm the sufferer?

I look forward to the answer for that one. If Spooky hasn’t got time to answer it, can another person who fully supports the ‘wrong body’ concept please answer this one.

Wellies54 · 01/05/2023 08:39

@SpookyFBI I would maintain that there is a difference between gender identity and gender stereotypes. Going back to the mother example, I can feel like a mother without conforming to motherly stereotypes. A trans woman can identify as a woman without conforming to gender stereotypes. Some do anyway. Some don’t. Just like some biological women adhere to stereotypes and some don’t.

This paragraph really sums up the difference in view point for me.

I would agree that you can feel like a mother without conforming to motherly stereotypes, but you cannot expect anyone to see you as a mother unless there is a child involved. There is a hugely broad range of what it means to be a mother, from a woman who has lost a baby to stillbirth, to a woman who has brought up her partner's child from the age of 12. But in all cases they have 'mothered'. There is also a lack of imposition; a woman who has never conceived and never cared for a child might identify as a mother but this does not actually impose on anyone else.

I think you can be a woman without conforming to gender stereotypes and there is a broad range of what it means to be a woman. BUT the unifying factor is female biology. The most butch lesbian is 100% a woman and a gay man who loves sparkles and glitter is 100% a man. There is simply no unifying factor between a transwoman and a woman which can be said to be 'living as a woman'. And I absolutely support the right of any man to 'identify as a woman' if he can feel something in himself which he feels is womanly or it makes him able to cope with life, but the key thing is that this does not change reality and should not be imposed on me.

Helleofabore · 01/05/2023 08:42

SpookyFBI · 01/05/2023 07:43

I would maintain that there is a difference between gender identity and gender stereotypes. Going back to the mother example, I can feel like a mother without conforming to motherly stereotypes. A trans woman can identify as a woman without conforming to gender stereotypes. Some do anyway. Some don’t. Just like some biological women adhere to stereotypes and some don’t.

There are indeed people out there who have the experience of not feeling like they are male or female, and some of these people use the term ‘non-binary’ to describe their experiences. I am not in any way suggesting that you should use this term to apply to yourself, it is entirely up to you to decide whether or not you relate to the experiences of these people, I am only bringing up the fact that these people exist for informational purposes

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

As to why some people have a gender identity that matches their biological sex, some have a gender identity that doesn’t match their biological sex, and some have an identity which doesn’t have a male or female gender… your guess is as good as mine, more research is needed.

Sorry spooky you might have already answered this, however, how do you account for the fact that no one can know what it is they are identifying as when it comes to identifying as the opposite sex?

People are truly identifying as their perception of the other sex. Only ever their own ‘creation’ of that sex.

SpookyFBI · 01/05/2023 08:51

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 30/04/2023 16:55

@SpookyFBI Thanks for having a go at explaining your perspective - I certainlt don't think you're bonkers for what it's worth, you sound lovely.

Yes 'gender critical people' / 'gender critical women' / 'people coming from the gender critical perspective' etc are all much better but do bare in mind not everyone who disagrees with some or all of trans ideology is necessarily coming from the same place - some people prefer sex realist and some people don't feel like they can or should be defined by the things they don't believe.

I know exactly what you're getting at with your comparison with the word mother, there are certainly problems using such a loaded word but proceeding with caution I'll try to explain why I don't quite agree.

Almost all words in English have a range of context dependant definitions and can be used in various ways by different people at different times. This is fine, nevertheless, in order to have meaningful laws and meaningful policies on things like safeguarding and meaningful conversations about single sex spaces the necessity of a single sex category in which female people can compete against other female people you need to be able to define your terms and explain what the words you are using mean in the context of the law or policy. Otherwise the law or policy is meaningless and unenforceable / unworkable.

The primary dictionary definition of the word "woman" is adult human female. This is without doubt the meaning (at the time it was completely accepted and uncontroversial) that was intended when the laws and policies were devised and written.

If you change the meaning of a law by redefining words used in writing the law it can have unintended consequences and should never be done with debate and proper democratic scrutiny as to the impact of changing those laws. Up until now people have been acting like not only could they change the word and therefore all the laws or policies which used that word but it was completely unreasonable for women to have an opinion.

In the context of having a baby the contribution of the father and the mother are quite distinct and frankly not equal, men have an orgasm, women grow and house the foetus and give birth - it seems fair to me to say that this is by comparison an enormous physical strain. So to be someone's mother is a significant and meaningful term. Where a child has a more complex history they might use the word mother with qualifiers like: birth mother, adoptive mother, step mother. This is fine because humans are generally quite good at context and nuance. But in general it is fair to say that if you gave birth to a baby you are that baby's mother, that isn't a status someone else can just decide to take on themselves. How they feel about and what they call these different women in their lives is up to them.

we're saying we want to retain the primary meaning of the words women woman and girl because without them it isn't easy or clear to talk about things which women do need to talk about. Language matters.

Middle aged women go on a 'girls night out' - Transwomen can tell their friends that they love this particular dress because it makes them feel girly, the middle aged women may or may not invite the transwoman on the 'girls night out'. Informal use of language see, nevertheless the adult male person shouldn't expect a place on the girls soccer team - because everyone (should imo) understand that in formal usage the word girl refers to female people under the age of (18 I would say in most places?).

I wholeheartedly agree that clarity in the law is vitally important and that all terms must be clearly defined, and to not do so can be potentially dangerous. If the word woman is used when making laws then I agree the word should be strictly defined. I personally think it would be better to word a law without using the word woman. For example, in Australia the parental leave policy uses the term ‘primary carer’. I think this is better that using the word ‘woman’ because it opens the door for families to decide that the father can be the primary carer, thus making it more socially acceptable for fathers to take on more childcare responsibility and ease the load of mothers, which I think ultimately is better for women.

I’m unsure if there is a legal definition of the word woman in Australia but if there is in your country and there are laws which rely on that definition then I agree that definition should not be changed without careful considerations of the ramifications. Are there any specific laws you’re concerned about? Because that’s certainly something that should be getting more attention.

RedToothBrush · 01/05/2023 08:54

AlisonDonut · 30/04/2023 12:36

I have completely missed the whole of the last thread as I've been ill but I'd like to ask if I may about this 'born in the wrong body' theory.

If a man lives his whole life as a man and then one day, decides he was born in this wrong body, at what point do people who believe him, decide to accept this?

So you will have some men to whom this applies and always applied and who kept it under wraps
Some men who decided this after watching extreme porn
And some men who lie.

What are you doing in your heads to unravel which is which in order to accept that this premise is true? And when does it become true for you?

My problem with the whole 'born in the wrong body' narrative is I believe it's just internalised sexism which doesn't necessarily come from within.

I have very vivid memories of my mother telling me and my brother we were born the wrong way round from when I was about 7.

It really screwed me up and I went through a time aged about 17 to 21 of really resenting being a woman and wanting to be a man. I had massive issues relating to child birth (I didn't want kids as a result and this lasted until my mid thirties - I eventually had a prearranged ELCS).

My brother was younger and this was more acute. My Dad worked away for a while but changed jobs because my parents were worried that he 'didn't have a male role model at home' (so why weren't they bothered about the impact on me?) They were concerned he didn't do any sports.

There were other things too but it all definitely came mainly from my mum but also my dad. It was straight up homophobia / sexism.

i could talk about this at length but I know what happened in our home and where it came from and how it wasn't internal as it affected me for a long time.

My brother almost certainly is undiagnosed ADHD/ASD. My Dad's younger brother is almost certainly too - to the point that he still lives with his mother who is extremely unwell and my Dad is concerned that he will struggle to care for himself when she dies.

The whole narrative is utter bollocks.

RedToothBrush · 01/05/2023 08:57

SpookyFBI · 01/05/2023 07:43

I would maintain that there is a difference between gender identity and gender stereotypes. Going back to the mother example, I can feel like a mother without conforming to motherly stereotypes. A trans woman can identify as a woman without conforming to gender stereotypes. Some do anyway. Some don’t. Just like some biological women adhere to stereotypes and some don’t.

There are indeed people out there who have the experience of not feeling like they are male or female, and some of these people use the term ‘non-binary’ to describe their experiences. I am not in any way suggesting that you should use this term to apply to yourself, it is entirely up to you to decide whether or not you relate to the experiences of these people, I am only bringing up the fact that these people exist for informational purposes

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

As to why some people have a gender identity that matches their biological sex, some have a gender identity that doesn’t match their biological sex, and some have an identity which doesn’t have a male or female gender… your guess is as good as mine, more research is needed.

My brother said this.

Then presented with the worst and most sexist gender stereotypes. To the point I found it grossly offensive and insulting.

It was just a way to guilt and manipulate and dodge comments to the contrary.

I just don't give any of this any creditability whatsoever as a result.

Kucinghitam · 01/05/2023 09:04

AlisonDonut · 01/05/2023 07:40

This is a really good explanation of the situation, and why the "mother" analogy doesn't work for me.

@Kucinghitam Can you explain why the mother analogy doesn't work for you?

Because @PriOn1 said 'this explains why the analogy works' and yet you say it is a good explanation of why it doesn't.

Sorry, what I meant (and should have clarified) is that the TRA version of the mother analogy doesn't work for me, whereas Prion's interpretation is a better explanation.

SpookyFBI · 01/05/2023 09:11

I just want to say thank you to those of you who have posted to me respectfully and in good faith but there are so many of them in such a short amount of time that it’s beginning to feel like a lot and it’s taking me away from spending time with my daughter so I think I’ll start lurking for a while unless I see a post I really want to respond to.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.