Page 13 | Still Genuinely Willing To Discuss In Good Faith

Catiette · 2023-04-30T10:43:40+00:00

I've taken the plunge and started a new thread. In the interests of good manners, an addendum that I may be disappearing to work for a while myself, as this has all been far too interesting to allow me to achieve any of my urgent weekend work to-dos today - I hope that, in the light of that, creating this follow-up thread isn't bad form. I just thought other people may want to continue discussing these issues (mainly, now, the redefinition of woman, and statistical trends re. women globally), and I'd definitely dip back in when the urge to procrastinate overcomes me next. No worries, of course, if people think we did it all to death on the old thread - we were fairly thorough, methinks(!), so can also just let Good Faith Discussion #2 rapidly fade into Mumsnet obscurity. 😀

Hepwo · 01/05/2023 13:53

We don't dish out rights based on whether other people 'feel' that they're comfortable with them having them.

Well that's ruled out men being given the right to be treated as if they're women! After all it's only a small minority that feels comfortable with it!

NotHavingIt · 01/05/2023 13:54

Deiji · 01/05/2023 11:37

That doesn't answer my question. It dodges it.

I wasn't dodging your question. I think focusing on the extremely rare occurrence of someone transgender using a women's facility to commit harm is a red herring, when women's facilities are frequently used by cis men to commit harm with no attempt to pretend to be transgender. I think it's a distraction and not a relevant point. There will always be people, of all types, who want to commit harm. There are cases of cis women producing child pornography at nurseries. We do not use those as examples of why children are not safe around cis women. We need to get out of this habit of finding someone in a group who has committed harm and using them as a representative of the group as a whole. Of course when someone commits harm in any way it's abhorrent, but so is using them as a representative of their entire group.

I have been accused of being another person (I'm not) and repeatedly accused of emotional manipulation despite asking you repeatedly to stop, so I'll leave here. I thought we could post in good faith. Notice that even though I disagree with many of you (and indeed there are some things being posted that I find deeply offensive) I haven't criticised any individual person or asked you to change the way that you write. I thought we could have a discussion in good faith but I see that that's not possible here.

Have a good day.

The truth is your arguments are inconsistent, illogically founded and just not very good.

Signalbox · 01/05/2023 13:54

Here’s the recent YouGov report. Seems the more the general public become aware of what’s going on the less accepting they are of women’s rights to spaces/sports/ being removed by allowing TW access to them. People are most concerned about males competing in the female sporting categories followed by changing rooms and then toilets.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/07/20/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

“Access to facilities: Britons are more worried about granting trans women access to women’s spaces than trans men to men’s spacesWhen it comes to access to gender-specific facilities, attitudes are consistently more permissive towards granting access to transgender men than transgender women. Willingness also depends on the facility in question, with people more concerned about allowing access to changing rooms than toilets.
While Britons are split on whether trans women should be allowed to use women’s toilets (38% say they should, 41% say they should not), they tend to be opposed to allowing trans women to use women’s changing rooms, by 43% to 34%.”

Where does the British public stand on transgender rights in 2022? | YouGov

There has been an erosion in support for trans rights since 2018

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/07/20/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

Nellodee · 01/05/2023 13:54

I’ve just realised that Deiji is saying that trans men should not use women’s facilities at present.

I find that very excluding.

OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit · 01/05/2023 13:55

@Deiji I think you are allowing surgery to carry a lot of weight here when the truth is the vast majority of trans people have no surgery at all, those that do have gender affirming surgery are way more likely to mean a nose job, jaw, shaving etc. The only moderately common surgery on sexual features is the removal of breast or the implantation of breast implants.
Even if someone has had a full 'sex change' they do not magically acquire the genitals of the opposite sex. A 'penis' made from flesh removed from elsewhere on the body isn't the same as an actual penis - coupled with the double mastectomy scars it would be fairly obvious that a naked TM isn't a natal male.

Transparent2 · 01/05/2023 13:56

Because I don't believe the feelings of a minority should define the rights of another minority. We don't dish out rights based on whether other people 'feel' that they're comfortable with them having them.

Is it OK for the feelings of a minority (such as transwomen) to define the rights of a majority (the sex class of female people)?

Deiji · 01/05/2023 13:56

So why don't men who identify as women not behave as well as other men?
Because they don't believe that they are men.

You are free to think what you like, of course. If you want to think that trans women are men, I cannot stop you. But you need to accept that others don't agree with you. Trans women don't think "I'm a man and men don't go into women's spaces" because they don't think "I'm a man". Trans women think "I'm a woman and women go into women's spaces, therefore I will go into women's spaces".

You're projecting and applying how you view trans women onto trans women. By assuming that they also see themselves as man, you're making a moral judgement on them not behaving how other men do. But if you accept the point of view that they genuinely believe that they are women (even if you don't), then it's extraordinarily easy to understand why they go into women's spaces.

Deiji · 01/05/2023 13:57

@Nellodee I'm not demanding the exclusion of trans men, I'm arguing against a strict order that trans men must go into women's spaces and trans women must go into men's spaces.

Deiji · 01/05/2023 13:57

@OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit I don't agree with you. Sorry.

bellinisurge · 01/05/2023 13:58

And transwomen are deluded to think they are women . If a transwomen understood what it is to be a woman they would stay out of women's sports and spaces and ask for help lobbying for their own.

OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit · 01/05/2023 14:00

Deiji · 01/05/2023 13:57

@OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit I don't agree with you. Sorry.

No problem - I don't agree with you.

I'm not sorry.

Deiji · 01/05/2023 14:00

@Signalbox If you scroll further down you can see a breakdown and it's clear that the point of view of the men (more anti-trans than women) skews the percentages downwards. If you view it as women only, the women who oppose the entry of trans women into most facilities are the minority (even when taking medical transition status into account). It's only men who have a majority on "should not be allowed".

ArabeIIaScott · 01/05/2023 14:00

Deiji · 01/05/2023 13:56

So why don't men who identify as women not behave as well as other men?
Because they don't believe that they are men.

You are free to think what you like, of course. If you want to think that trans women are men, I cannot stop you. But you need to accept that others don't agree with you. Trans women don't think "I'm a man and men don't go into women's spaces" because they don't think "I'm a man". Trans women think "I'm a woman and women go into women's spaces, therefore I will go into women's spaces".

You're projecting and applying how you view trans women onto trans women. By assuming that they also see themselves as man, you're making a moral judgement on them not behaving how other men do. But if you accept the point of view that they genuinely believe that they are women (even if you don't), then it's extraordinarily easy to understand why they go into women's spaces.

Lots of people believe they have a right to do all sorts of things. Doesn't mean that as a society, we allow them to do that. Especially not if it compromises the privacy, dignity, and safety of others.

Hepwo · 01/05/2023 14:02

Deiji · 01/05/2023 13:31

@sanluca Trans women aren't campaigning to have access to women's facilities, because they already have it in the vast majority of cases. It is currently the case that gender critical women are campaigning to remove those rights, not the other way around.

The rights as you call them all hinge on male and female just being an identity. This is unfounded. Why would sex exemptions exist at all in the Equality Act if it was only applicable on a personal choice basis?

It's amazing how this pile of lies stands on nothing at all, just the importance of capitulation to men's preferences at all times.

If you are happy capitulating to men @Deiji do you really think that you can persuade people posting on a feminist board to do this?

Is that because you like to have a man in charge of feminism and think we all should?

Deiji · 01/05/2023 14:03

Okay. I'm trying to keep the focus on women's safety but many point of views are starting to be expressed that are openly transphobic and do not relate to the topic of women's safety.

I'm not willing to support that, so in the interest of not giving such people more opportunities to argue, I'm going to stop now.

For those of you who argue that I'm capitulating to men, I'd like to point out again that I'm supporting the point of view most held by women, and you are supporting the point of view most held by men. Look in the mirror before you accuse me of capitulating to men.

Thanks to those of you who discussed this in good faith. Have a good day.

ArabeIIaScott · 01/05/2023 14:05

Deiji, I can imagine it's very difficult to argue when the view you hold is not held by most of the other people here. So thanks for engaging and trying.

I hope you will continue to engage on this board.

Transparent2 · 01/05/2023 14:06

Deiji · 01/05/2023 13:41

Based on their observed sex at birth. Which makes much more sense than basing them on internal gender or lack of gender feelings someone has.

@sanluca This then means that people filled with testosterone, who have a penis, facial hair and a tall, muscular body are required to use women's facilities.

I do not believe the claims that the women who are afraid of people who "look like they could possibly be men" will feel safe when they see these people in their spaces.

The person you are describing does not have a penis. That person has an imitation of a penis.

bellinisurge · 01/05/2023 14:06

As for the stats, once you explain that over 70% of transwomen- even with a GRC - retain their male genitalia, the figure for "support " plummets. The days of Be Kind and No Debate are over . So you need to explain why it's ok for an adult with a penis to undress next to a girl. Do that and we can start a conversation.

bellinisurge · 01/05/2023 14:07

@Transparent2 , exactly. Transmen do not have penises

Hepwo · 01/05/2023 14:08

The reason you're not seeing this in action is that those demanding that all facilities be facilitated based on birth genitals do not have any capacity to prove in law that it is either proportionate or has a legitimate aim.

So nothing to do with all the bullshit "training" and threats of court action then?

It's always proportional and legitimate to have single sex services when women are undressing and vulnerable. The fact that some men believe that they are included on a free choice basis is antithetical to the purpose.

It's extraordinary that you have to point this out!

What about the men! Its rather indoctrinated into some people, men must have what they want!

Sometimes, it's a no.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 01/05/2023 14:08

I'd like to point out again that I'm supporting the point of view most held by women, and you are supporting the point of view most held by men.

And yet no studies provided to back up that statement.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 01/05/2023 14:09

bellinisurge · 01/05/2023 14:06

As for the stats, once you explain that over 70% of transwomen- even with a GRC - retain their male genitalia, the figure for "support " plummets. The days of Be Kind and No Debate are over . So you need to explain why it's ok for an adult with a penis to undress next to a girl. Do that and we can start a conversation.

Exactly. The whole point of being a trans woman or man, was to fully transition. Those who keep their biological genitalia are not fully transitioning, they are just simply changing clothes and hairstyles to what they perceive a woman should look like.

Signalbox · 01/05/2023 14:09

Deiji · 01/05/2023 14:00

@Signalbox If you scroll further down you can see a breakdown and it's clear that the point of view of the men (more anti-trans than women) skews the percentages downwards. If you view it as women only, the women who oppose the entry of trans women into most facilities are the minority (even when taking medical transition status into account). It's only men who have a majority on "should not be allowed".

Lol the irony…

“Look, I'll be honest, I know that when I present these polls to you, you're going to tell me they're not valid because you don't like them.”

NotHavingIt · 01/05/2023 14:10

Deiji · 01/05/2023 12:50

Alright, since some of you have asked me to continue, I will - but I'm not responding to anyone who chooses to take a personal approach. We can disagree without needing to accuse each other of things.

To clarify (as I understand it) Deiji is not saying that transmen would be a threat to women but that by accepting a person with a male presentation in the space that would allow predatory males to exploit it.

Correct. I believe that if the premise is "we're afraid of predatory cis men pretending to be trans women to access women's facilities", this risk is drastically increased if we switched it around and they could simply pretend to be trans men instead. Therefore making women less safe (under the specific premise of predatory cis men exploiting the situation).

I am not arguing that we shouldn't try to keep women safe; rather, I am arguing that by requiring trans men to use women's spaces, we are actively making women less safe. Not because I believe trans men are a risk to women, but because it makes it easier for predatory cis men to do what you're already afraid they'll do. In short, I believe that forcing trans women into the men's and trans men into the women's will increase the harm inflicted by cis men on women.

And just to clarify a further point that I've seen a few posts up - I'm not saying that all trans people are gender conforming in presentation. My point is that if you're afraid that someone is a man and will harm you, you are most likely afraid of that person because you looked at that person and you saw something about them that made you think "that's a man". So while I am referring to "masculine" presentation here, I do not mean to imply that all people are gender conforming. Rather, I'm saying that the people who are afraid of specific people are afraid of them because of the way that they look. After all, we cannot know someone's chromosomes (without testing) or birth genitals, so all of these fears are based on the way that a person looks.

Regarding additional toilet facilities
I'm not against the idea of additional facilities exactly. I just don't think they're the easy solution you're imagining for these reasons:

Many structures will simply not have the space or money to create a fourth (and possibly fifth or sixth) set of facilities.
If we're saying that cis people should have the right to not share toilets with someone of the "opposite sex", should we not take into account the comfort of trans people too? If cis women don't want to be in unisex toilets, maybe trans women don't, either? What if those trans people don't want to use the unisex facilities? Should we create these: Cis men, cis women, trans men, trans women, unisex, disabled? Where does it end? At what point do we draw a line? You will undoubtedly argue that the line is "cis women, cis men, disabled, unisex/trans" - but I personally do not agree that it is fair. More to the point, because many trans people will not agree that it is fair, they will not use these facilities and will simply continue to use the facility of their choice. Why create a facility when the people you want to use it don't, themselves, want to use it?

So yes, while I wouldn't say no to additional facilities, I don't think it's the easy solution that some of you are proposing it as and I don't think it's as simple as you think.

Urinary leash. Women also experienced a urinary leash. Trans people simply do not.
Many trans people today are expressing a fear of going out in public because they no longer feel that they have the unquestioned right to access public toilets. While I appreciate that you will disagree with this sentiment, many trans people do feel that there is a concerted attempt to impose upon them a urinary leash which may restrict them from accessing public spaces.

We already have single sex facilities which are protected in law. Even people with a GRC can be excluded.
You are using the words 'cis' as if everyone is accepting of this concept. They are not. It is predicated on gender theory and not on sex.
Did you read the article posted by a gtranssexual who thmself disagrees with notions/concepts of 'cis' and 'gender'?
Your emphasis is always on what trans identified people want and think is fair, not on women's needs and preferences.
The only obvious solution which protects everyone's dignity, comfort and safety is third spaces, services and open categories. All that is needed is one gender neutral toilet - given that trans identified people are in a tiny majority. I attended a concert last week - and this was the precise arrangment: single sex facilities, disabled/accessible toilet and one gender neutral toilet.

Hepwo · 01/05/2023 14:11

Deiji · 01/05/2023 13:56

So why don't men who identify as women not behave as well as other men?
Because they don't believe that they are men.

You are free to think what you like, of course. If you want to think that trans women are men, I cannot stop you. But you need to accept that others don't agree with you. Trans women don't think "I'm a man and men don't go into women's spaces" because they don't think "I'm a man". Trans women think "I'm a woman and women go into women's spaces, therefore I will go into women's spaces".

You're projecting and applying how you view trans women onto trans women. By assuming that they also see themselves as man, you're making a moral judgement on them not behaving how other men do. But if you accept the point of view that they genuinely believe that they are women (even if you don't), then it's extraordinarily easy to understand why they go into women's spaces.

It is like the Ladybird book of Men and Women here today!