Page 5 | Yvette Cooper on LBC

1dayatatime · 26/04/2023 10:31

Oh I do like Yvette Cooper - the cleverest politician in Parliament and the best Prime Minister that the country will never get.

PollyPeptide · 26/04/2023 10:37

1dayatatime · 26/04/2023 10:31

Oh I do like Yvette Cooper - the cleverest politician in Parliament and the best Prime Minister that the country will never get.

...and a bit of a fibber. Yep, PM material.

PollyPeptide · 26/04/2023 10:45

AmuseBish · 26/04/2023 10:30

I don't mean this rudely at all, but it looks like you're working on the assumption that "trans" means "wanting to be the opposite sex". It doesn't. That's what we all thought it meant, up to a few years ago anyway, which was why I didn't really have a problem with it.

But it's now "trans women are literally women" and trans covers all sorts of gender identities (72 at last count?), none of which seem to have any concrete definitions. And "woman" is now a gender and nothing to do with the female sex. So I don't know if I'm a woman or not! It's all been redefined but without telling us what the new definition is. I have not seen anyone who claims that a woman is not a female (and there are many such people) ever clarify what a woman is. It's a feeling, apparently, or a soul or identity, but I don't know if my feelings are a woman's feelings, because no-one will say what they are.

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I feel a bit abused actually. I replied to you because you asked someone to and I didnt like that you felt ignored. I've told you I'm not an expert. It now feels like you're trying to catch me out in some way when I was genuinely trying to engage with you.

You quite clearly are not serious about what you're saying or you have an idea about what you want to be told. As you point out, I don't know what I'm talking about so there's really not any point me carrying on talking to you. I hope you get the answers you're looking for from someone else.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 26/04/2023 10:45

You’re now whitewashing history so that you can minimise obvious parallels between homophobic movements and transphobic ones.

You misunderstand the history.

Homosexual people were persecuted and misunderstood (in our culture) for being same sex attracted, and that was wrong.

Gender non-conforming people were persecuted and misunderstood (in our culture) for being gender non-conforming, and that was wrong.

To the degree that both groups were "punished" for transgressing restrictive social expectations for their sex, yes these wrongs are indeed linked.

However, the concept that gender non-conforming people are not even of their own sex but a different type of person altogether is a new thing (in our culture) and is not the reason they historically suffered prejudice.

Indeed, the different type of person concept in IMO is actually closer to the old prejudice that gender non-conforming people are somehow wrong for their natal the sex than it is to any progressive ideas of accepting them as entirely normal and valid members of their birth sex.

RhymesWithOrange · 26/04/2023 10:51

PomegranateOfPersephone · 25/04/2023 17:17

Labour seem to be talking about “biological women” as if there were any other kind of women. There aren’t. Woman is enough, it doesn’t need a qualifier. They have realised that “cis” won’t fly so they are trying “biological” instead. We are women, we are not a subset, we are it.

I still don’t trust Labour I think they are playing word games and will continue to plough ahead with some form of self ID if they get voted into government.

Agree, they are heading in the right direction but they are not there yet.

bellinisurge · 26/04/2023 11:01

@RhymesWithOrange until they saying 100% of women do not have and have never had a penis they can fuck off. I'm not interested. We are in this mess because of weasel words.
Labour, tell the truth or don't waste my time. It's on you if that means the Tories win next time.

NotHavingIt · 26/04/2023 11:01

PomegranateOfPersephone · 26/04/2023 09:44

This!

I think it is associated with mass identity crisis among certain parts of the population.

Also it really suits businesses and corporations for a variety of reasons, especially technology companies.

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Identities have become marketing tools, as well as being the products of marketing.....not radical at all.

Original poster

Flowerly · 26/04/2023 11:02

Sunak's recent statement pulls the rug from under Labour on this - especially saying that he supports Rosie Duffield! Starmer has NEVER supported her.

OP posts:

Original poster

Flowerly · 26/04/2023 11:03

bellinisurge · 26/04/2023 11:01

@RhymesWithOrange until they saying 100% of women do not have and have never had a penis they can fuck off. I'm not interested. We are in this mess because of weasel words.
Labour, tell the truth or don't waste my time. It's on you if that means the Tories win next time.

Yes and they will blame women for being bigots n the same way that they blamed the red wall voters for being thick. It's never their fault.

OP posts:

RhymesWithOrange · 26/04/2023 11:15

bellinisurge · 26/04/2023 11:01

@RhymesWithOrange until they saying 100% of women do not have and have never had a penis they can fuck off. I'm not interested. We are in this mess because of weasel words.
Labour, tell the truth or don't waste my time. It's on you if that means the Tories win next time.

Completely 100% agree.

AmuseBish · 26/04/2023 11:18

@PollyPeptide Ah I'm genuinely sorry, I'm not trying to piss anyone off and I am glad that you responded. Really not trying to catch anyone out, almost the opposite - I'm in the dark about what lots of it means but we are constantly told 'woman doesn't mean female' 'non-binary people are trans' 'trans is an umbrella that covers xyz' - but then people come on and complain that you don't jump at the chance to call yourself 'cis' but I have no idea if it even applies to me!!

So my exhortation was more to the posters such as @TraumatisedGooner that say 'it's simple, I don't know why you are complaining, it's obvious what cis and trans mean'... then never answer my questions!

I wish you a happy day with cake and tea/gin/whatever your fancy is

As I said I don't always know how to phrase things to get my tone across or whatever so happy to be picked up on that!

AmuseBish · 26/04/2023 11:22

Anyway back to Yvette Cooper - it makes me so frustrated and feel disenfranchised when people can just toss about lies like that or refuse to address a question. It seems to be totally illogical so I can see why they don't want to address it but they're past that point now.

I want clarity, not weasel words, and I'm hardly alone in that!

Waxdrip · 26/04/2023 12:49

Trans is a shortening of transgender which is a well defined term. Cis is a shortening of cisgender which is a well defined term.

@TraumatisedGooner what are the clear definitions of those terms, in your view?

Their meanings appear to me to have shifted over the past few years. The LP were too slow to recognise the shift of 'transgender' from 'identifies as..' to 'is literally..' and are struggling to backtrack. I don't trust them on this issue.

MavisMcMinty · 26/04/2023 12:53

I can’t imagine any circumstances where I’d call myself “cis-gender/a cis-woman”. And I’d yell at anyone describing me in those terms to my face. I am woman, hear me fucking roar.

Riapia · 26/04/2023 13:34

I’ll only believe it when I hear Starmer publicly apologise to Rosie.

Bosky · 26/04/2023 13:59

TraumatisedGooner · 26/04/2023 08:11

You’re now whitewashing history so that you can minimise obvious parallels between homophobic movements and transphobic ones.

One of the most insidious and pervasive arguments made about gay people is that they choose to be gay. One nasty consequence of this belief is conversion therapy, a deeply harmful practice. The idea that people have always believed in sexual orientation as most do today is preposterous. Sadly, many still believe that being gay is a choice, which results in laws that aim to reduce the visibility of gay people and culture out of a fear that awareness will turn people gay. The UK has a shameful recent history with such laws, and in America laws like that are starting to gather momentum again.

As for the terms heterosexual and straight, their etymology isn’t some big secret. A hundred years ago Merriam Webster defined heterosexual as ‘morbid sexual passion for one of the opposite sex’. This is not a label that straight people embraced in its early day because, like with this conversation about cis and trans, many want to be considered normal and are happy to other those who are different.

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"One of the most insidious and pervasive arguments made about gay people is that they choose to be gay"

Have you not heard of Political Lesbianism?

Political lesbianism remains a contentious debate in lesbian feminist circles — is there a generational divide?
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2022/01/30/political-lesbianism-remains-a-contentious-debate-in-lesbian-feminist-circles-is-there-a-generational-divide/

"Political Lesbianism"
https://revisesociology.com/2020/06/12/political-lesbianism/

"Political Lesbianism"
https://frauenkultur.co.uk/category/political-lesbianism/

"Julie Bindel: There’s no gay gene – and I love the idea I chose to be a lesbian"
https://archive.is/1UKGr

You also seem to have an aversion to even using the word "lesbian":

TraumatisedGooner · Yesterday 21:47

"gay women"

Why is that?

Political lesbianism remains a contentious debate in lesbian feminist circles — is there a generational divide?

The concept of “political lesbianism” has been the subject of heated debate among lesbians and feminists for many decades, though probably left off the radar of those outside lesbian feminist circles. The term, which became popular among radical and le...

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2022/01/30/political-lesbianism-remains-a-contentious-debate-in-lesbian-feminist-circles-is-there-a-generational-divide

JanesLittleGirl · 26/04/2023 18:54

Flowerly · 25/04/2023 16:40

Did anyone else hear this? She just clearly said that there are differences between what she called 'biological women' and TW and that just because you change your gender does not mean that you change your sex! I almost fell over in shock.

Is this the start of a full on turnaround from the LP? Will I be able to vote for them again? I so want to!

Nah! This is just playing with words. If YC had used "women" instead of "biological women" then that would be a shift. But she didn't so.....

NotHavingIt · 26/04/2023 19:13

Yyvette seems to have become a bit shouty recently, in such a way I've not seen before. I think she may be under a lot of pressure.

EpicChaos · 26/04/2023 19:51

@Jezzz " You’re right to be worried. A more likely prospect is that a Labour govt allows the Scottish or Welsh Assemblies to introduce SelfID so it’s introduced in a way in which he can avoid taking responsibility "

Whether i'm worried or not, is beside the point, i was enquiring as to why you were putting any store whatsoever into what might, or might not be written in a manifesto?

@1dayatatime · Today 10:31
" Oh I do like Yvette Cooper - the cleverest politician in Parliament and the best Prime Minister that the country will never get. "

Is that cos she invented notional wheelchairs, meaning that the severely disabled, including young men returning home from an illegal war she'd voted for, with their legs missing, were refused benefits!
Is that why?
Or is it because she and her husband are expenses cheats, claiming a fortune and flipping their houses?

TraumatisedGooner · 28/04/2023 00:24

Bosky · 26/04/2023 13:59

"One of the most insidious and pervasive arguments made about gay people is that they choose to be gay"

Have you not heard of Political Lesbianism?

Political lesbianism remains a contentious debate in lesbian feminist circles — is there a generational divide?
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2022/01/30/political-lesbianism-remains-a-contentious-debate-in-lesbian-feminist-circles-is-there-a-generational-divide/

"Political Lesbianism"
https://revisesociology.com/2020/06/12/political-lesbianism/

"Political Lesbianism"
https://frauenkultur.co.uk/category/political-lesbianism/

"Julie Bindel: There’s no gay gene – and I love the idea I chose to be a lesbian"
https://archive.is/1UKGr

You also seem to have an aversion to even using the word "lesbian":

TraumatisedGooner · Yesterday 21:47

"gay women"

Why is that?

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You caught me. I have a severe aversion to using the word lesbian. I break out in hives every time I say it.

Bosky · 30/04/2023 01:31

Here's something for that nasty rash 😢

PatatiPatatras · 30/04/2023 05:22

MishyJDI · 25/04/2023 17:32

Why? Why should men have to share with them? They need their own third spaces - you know for their own protection. They could have showed in there too.

costly I think. But many seem to advocate for that. Labour and Rosie duffield could leapfrog the tories doing that!

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Keep going mishy. You're really almost there. At some point you'll realise no woman gives a flying fuck where you pee as long as it isn't full frontal in a public space or in women's single sex toilets.
And women are entitled to spas, prisons and any other single sex space free of male bodies.
Campaign for whatever you want but don't blame Rosie Duffield or the tories for lack of voices around it. It isn't their fault that we had to kick TRAs out of women's toilets before you realised 3rd spaces weren't such a bad idea after all. It's partially yours for sticking to that line for way too long.