CAHMS/SEN workshop worries. (TW)

[BreadMeUp]

So DD is in Yr 9. She's on SEN register at school, waiting on autism referral, eating disorder ect.

We've had a lot of shit with her regarding gender identity. She's possibly autistic, very easily influenced and has sexual trauma history :(

School arranged for her to attend an art therapy course through a local charity and CAHMS.

There was the usual virtue signalling on the forms. Gender. Pronouns etc.

But I've just got the activity schedule for the project and the theme is 'Identity'

Would I be an absolute didk of I rang and asked them to clarify what that means and ask if 'gender identity' is going to be involved.

Because if it is she absolutely isn't attending. I'm sick to my back teeth of this bollocks being peddelled at vulnerable kids.

Just sent you a PM.

Thanks this is brilliantly perceptive and I absolutely agree with your stance.

I imagine "loss of control" can be an aggravating factor with girls dealing with eating disorders and sexual assault trauma as well. You can see how gender ideology becomes attractive, promising a strange power to enforce the language and actions of the adults and peers in your life.

Agreed. Although I had a very real fear of my daughter following a medical pathway that is based on a severely limited evidence base, I've kept as level a head as I can and have tried to stay away from emotive language.

At the start of my journey, I listened to a lot of destransitioners and also spoke to several LGBT+ (in the +TQ end) people, just to make that I was taking on board as many perspectives as possible. I had no preconditions other than "it sounds a bit like my daughter is telling me she is a lesbian, which would be totally fine".

Despite the fact that I don't believe in an innate gender identity (Iearned this about myself on the journey), I very much value the constructive contributions of some of the people on the FWR board who do, as without that input, it's less of a conversation. If someone is liberated by a gender identity, that's great. Should anyone wish to modify their body to support this belief, I believe that they need support to help understand if anything else could alleviate their dysphoria first.

In the case of a child (and presumably adult too) with any co-morbiditity such as autism, the I came to realise that the first step would be a differential diagnosis to understand what is causing the distress. I channelled my inner House (TV series with Hugh Laurie) and tested the first and least intrusive theory first: that she was distressed by the changes to her body.

From there, I realised that she needed safeguarding in order to remain on a pathway that had no intrinsic bias. And that sadly, that I needed to create this for her.

Sorry, couple of typos

*make sure
*preconceptions

Being naïve here, but I would be taken back if a SEND group should bring up gender identity. This is out of place.

I don't see any reason to discuss anything lgbt related because it has nothing to do with SEND. Which means they likely won't bring it up.

Identity could be "SEND identification" which is identifying people with SEND. Reference: https://epi.org.uk/publications-and-research/identifying-send/

Like everyone else here wrote: Give the charity a call and ask. If this cannot allay your fears, sit in on the session in the back out of sight.

If they do plan to discuss topics unrelated to autism and SEND in general, then this session is likely inappropriate.

However, it is not a conspiracy, and the group is likely adding this out of a desire to help even if misguided and certainly misplaced.

Good luck. I hope you get to the bottom of this.

@BonfireLady that all sounds so amazing, if only all children could be safeguarded in this way. I think you did fantastically well.

It is very distressing that children are being asked leading questions by medical professionals / education professionals presupposing a belief in gender identity. Cass said that other issues were being ignored and children sent down a trans only pathway when they had other significant issues. Given many of them end up on experimental drugs with very little data on benefit vs risk and some serious side effects it's really disturbing.

In my original document I had stated that health and education professionals "will not ask [name] 'what pronouns do you use?' ", but I did accept that I can't compell people to use or not use specific words.

The irony of this is off the charts.

I wonder if there's any mileage in asking that professionals only use standard English as deviation from that is confusing. 'Preferred pronouns' are not standard English usage and upend completely the normal position in language of third person pronouns. I find it weird that people have so unquestioningly accepted demands for compelled speech on the basis of totally re-writing the rules of English.

PS. Groups don't need preferred pronouns. We all have names, and referring to someone in the third person usually elicits "who's she? The cat's mother?" :-)

Bonfirelady you are amazing.

Unfortunately it comes up a lot, led by the children in many cases.. who have been led by what they learned in RHSE or on the internet.

As an example, my daughter's school has an autism group for girls (girls have slightly different concerns at times, such as periods - hence the dedicated group) that is run by an external occupational therapy team. Following a suggestion by one of the girls who attends it, it was going to be renamed so that it could be inclusive of non-binary or trans (male) identifying girls.

I learned about the proposed rename after I had shared our safeguarding document (I sent it ahead of it being included in the EHCP - the official documentation takes time and I wanted to put it in place as soon as possible).

As far as I'm aware, this discussion has been taken back in to the wider OT team, who run similar groups in other schools. So far, there has been no name change.

I didn't directly contribute to the discussion myself, as I am aware that I have no direct influence on the outcome. However, I did feed back directly to the OT team that I was pleased that my document had given them some food for thought.

And on another plus note, they agreed to the safeguarding request. Now that it is in the EHCP, any provision that is put in place at school such as this will be covered from now on.

Um they said they were including gender identity, sexuality and anything else te kids bring up.

Also, no pronouns aren't needed, but groups like this keep bringing them up. That's the problem.

You really are amazing.

I'm currently trying to write up something to the school that says due to DDs backgrounds and queried ND I don't want her being exposed to any gender ideology, being asked her her pronouns and that any changes DD wants to implement to her name or pronouns have to go through me first.

You absolutely aren’t alone. My younger son could really have used some therapy coming to terms with his diagnosis but as at the time he felt very much out of place and would have gone along with anything suggested by a person in a position of authority which would have let him feel he belonged somewhere I was relieved the CAHMS waiting time was so long and didn’t dare point him at the National Autistic Society (NAS). We’ve muddled through but I’m so angry that resources that should be there to help are more likely to harm

Just a small update.

I had a conversation with DD about this. I explained that the project tomorrow was centered around 'identity' and her first question was can her art be about cats 😢 I told her it can be about anything she cares about.

I told her that I had spoken to het teacher today and that her teacher told me her friends call her 'Nickname' at school and that teacher had asked DD if she wanted staff to call her that and does she still want to use female pronouns.

DD immediately burst into tears and said

'I'm sick of all that stuff. I literally don't care about any of it. It's just a cool name'

We talked some more and she firmly established she is happy as a girl, the name thing has nothing to do with 'gender' and it's something only her friends call her.

I told her that's fine. DH has nicknames for me. My friends have nicknames for each other.

So this nickname has fuck all to do with her questioning her gender identity but the teacher took it straight to that and started asking about pronouns.

I'm writing to the school on Wednesday about this.

I want a written confirmation that that won't push any more of this shit on her. She was crying FFS.

She is a bisexual, ND girl with short hair. That's it.

Oh Bread I'm so glad your DD opened up to you about this.

My DD has been in tears about the 'gender stuff' in school and she's a pretty gender conforming (but scientifically minded) girl. It's being pushed so hard by adults to the exclusion of everything else - it's basically grooming at this point. Why assume a nickname = gender questioning? It's sick. Loads of people have nicknames. Names are parts of language that denote individuals UNLIKE THIRD PERSON PRONOUNS so it's not surprising people will play around with them particularly in the teen years.

I hope you manage to get an agreement to safeguard your daughter from this stuff.

It's causing mental anguish in children, it's not ok, why is every organisation on board with pushing children down this damaging path whether they want to go there or not?

I feel so sad for kids with autism trying to work out what growing-up means for themselves. It's hard enough dealing with their changing emotions, feelings and bodies, without the gender identity movement trying to define things for them.

I just imagine how complicated their lives have become in relatively recent times, especially for kids who are gay. Nobody wants to let them be themselves, find out who they are attracted to and respect their uniqueness; it's all a bit like picking a House at Hogwarts - what label are you? Added angst for the sake of a fashionable trend.

@dimorphism snap!

Did they explain what this had to do with SEND? If anything at all?

I really don't understand why it's ok to demand that those around you totally upend the rules of English. It's exclusionary to non native English speakers (and anyone who follows the rules of grammar).

Dyslexics don't get to demand that everyone do away with punctuation because they find it difficult - and frankly that seems like a more reasonable demand than 'preferred pronouns'. What if other people don't prefer them.

'I don't see any reason to discuss anything lgbt related because it has nothing to do with SEND. Which means they likely won't bring it up.'

0Oo, I do think you may be being naive. DH, initially cynical, has taking to bringing me examples of his colleagues' trans-kids, accompanied by 'Yes, guess what, it's the autistic one/the one with ADHD'.

There's a correlation between SEND and a tendency to identify as a different gender, probably because adolescence is even more baffling than usual if you are already different.

This is fantastic news @BreadMeUp

It's such a minefield of a topic and, as per my comments above, we've not actually explored gender identity together because our conversation took us in a different direction. It's so great to hear that you and she were able to explore this directly together.

But yes, writing to the school absolutely sounds like the best approach. Belt and braces, particularly given the vulnerability of autistic children.

It saddens me to hear that a teacher automatically asked her if she was happy with female pronouns just because of the nickname. That is exactly what happens in our experience too, which is what prompted me to write the safeguarding document in the first place.

Interestingly, my daughter also said "because I like it" when a mental health professional (who had agreed to the principles in the document but was unable to sign it, due to their protocols - we discussed and agreed the approach in advance before I said yes to the appointment) asked her why she had chosen her nickname without the pronouns question. Nothing about gender identity at all.

And thank you to the people who said some lovely comments above.

It's such a difficult journey to navigate.
And yes, absolutely @MagicSpring , autistic children are particularly prevalent in the current trans-identified population. One theory that I've heard is that it becomes an obsession/passion, similar to other autistic obsessions. Interestingly from what I've read early on in our journey of autism understanding, well before I was aware of gender identity, girls' obsessions are more likely to be concepts (e.g. Greta Thunberg and the environment) whereas boys' obsessions are more likely to be tangible things (e.g. collecting a particular toy or remembering the names of types of cars). Gender identity is the perfect fit for a concept to obsess over, particularly if a girl is finding her changing body distressing and already feels androgenous.

@dimorphism I totally get your point about the language and how people talk about "preferred pronouns".

For me it simply comes down to whether I believe in the concept of an inate gender identity or not. As I don't, the question has no meaning for me. So if anyone were to ask me directly, my answer would be "I don't know". It hasn't happened yet but that's what I've prepared in advance as an answer.

My concern centres around everyone who is vulnerable when they hear that question. It effectively asks "would you like to opt out of the gender/sex I can see that you are?" (I'm using gender/sex as the same thing there deliberately because the conflation is already there in the question and the implied idea that gender is real).

I also think there is a sensory thing with girls with autism. My autistic daughter wears boys clothes because she can't bear the feel of girls clothes, which is the reason why many autistic girls also wear short hairstyles.

The problem is that schools/ camhs look at kids like my daughter in their boys clothes and think this must be a 'gender identity thing'. My daughter was actually asked by CAMHs if she felt like a boy. Add that on to peer pressure and trans being cool and it's a perfect storm for vulnerable kids.

In our local SEN Support group EVERY autistic girl bar my daughter identifies as trans.

I suspect, but don't know, that there has been a bit of a vested interest in CAMHs pinning anxiety and sensory issues on gender ID. If they can signpost to gender services they are freeing up some pretty lengthy waitlists. But maybe I'm just being cynical.

@BonfireLady what you have said is brilliant and im just bookmarking to be able to refer back to what you have done. I'm a Foster carer and you never know when I'll need it.

@BonfireLady
Your thinking about this issue is so fair and enquiring, but clear and logical at the same time. I think the safeguarding guidance you have thought out for your child, and so bravely taken on the professionals about, is one of the most admirable examples of helping your child in a difficult world that I have ever seen.