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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is Diane Abbott right that only Black people experience racism and other ethnic groups experience prejudice?

579 replies

IwantToRetire · 23/04/2023 20:22

Diane Abbott has been suspended as a Labour MP pending an investigation into a letter she wrote about racism to the Observer, the party has said.

The politician said "many types of white people with points of difference" can experience prejudice, in a letter published on Sunday.

But they are not subject to racism "all their lives", she said.

She later tweeted to say she was withdrawing her remarks and apologised "for any anguish caused".

Labour said the comments were "deeply offensive and wrong".

Suspending the whip means Ms Abbott will not be allowed to represent Labour in the House of Commons, where she will now sit as an independent MP.

In the letter, she wrote that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people "undoubtedly experience prejudice", which she said is "similar to racism".

She continued: "It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice.

"But they are not all their lives subject to racism.

"In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus.

"In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote.

"And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships."

She had been responding to a comment piece in the Guardian questioning the view that racism "only affects people of colour".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65365978

OP posts:
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DemiColon · 27/04/2023 02:31

TheBiologyStupid · 26/04/2023 20:44

The evidence for a historical Jesus isn't great: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5x4SUZZrHuKcjVBMmR6THZiV1E/view?resourcekey=0-fyrabtKL7GJX0M3U70Sc7A

(Apologies for the derail.)

I'm sorry, this is just amateurish, like reading a scientific paper from the Flat Earth Society.

The existence of Jesus as a historical figure isn't even controversial in university departments of ancient history. If a job candidate came in repeating this kind of thing he or she would rightly be laughed out of the room.

bugbugMNthx · 27/04/2023 03:32

There is one group of people who experience prejudice at all points throughout their life, irrespective of their skin tone. Interestingly, it's also a minority that anyone can become a part of at any time, irrespective of income, religion, nationality or ethnic origin.

It's being disabled/having a disability.

The first to be targetted in Germany in the 1930s and still subject to constant judgement and prejudice.

Ms Abbot is talking out of her hat!

HathorsFigTree · 27/04/2023 08:08

AP5Diva · 26/04/2023 22:20

Not really. Different is different. Visible is visible. Doesn’t have to be down to what shade of makeup you match for it to be racism.

It’s not just skin tone though, is it?

For some reason, you really want to stick to this idea that ‘tribe/nation’ is the only way of grouping differences between people, therefore ‘race’ and ‘tribe/nation’ are synonymous.

However, in order for this to be true, you completely deny the other significant differences between people which are nothing whatsoever to do with tribe or nation, yet is on the basis that racism is suffered.

Why is it so important for you to treat these two different things as though they are identical?

When I was in a swimming pool, as a child, in a different European country, I heard lots of whispering, murmuring and saw some furtive pointing, I looked around and saw a black kid in the pool (something totally normal at home in London). It wasn’t hostility, but curiosity and astonishment from all the kids. If someone from a Caucasian tribe was in that pool, no one would have batted an eyelid.

‘Race’ is something perceived with they eyes, ‘tribe/nation’ is invisible unless there are deliberately placed cultural markers like clothes, tattooing, etc.

I think it is forced teaming to conflate the meaning of tribe and race, which disadvantages those who suffer racism with no tribal component. I believe Diane Abbot was trying to say this, but completely screwed up.

AP5Diva · 27/04/2023 08:41

Hathor, good morning.
“It’s not just skin tone though, is it?” That’s my point! To Diane Abbot it is only skin tone that determines race and therefore racism.

“For some reason, you really want to stick to this idea that ‘tribe/nation’ is the only way of grouping differences between people, therefore ‘race’ and ‘tribe/nation’ are synonymous.” No. Tribes and nations are completely different we haven’t even discussed the concept of a nation and you’ve misunderstood me if you think that I said tribe and race are synonymous.

“Race’ is something perceived with they eyes” or ears. My point is that skin colour isn’t the only thing people see or hear when assessing otherness and then deciding if it’s a race they hate or feel prejudice towards.

“I think it is forced teaming to conflate the meaning of tribe and race” no one is doing that, except for you by implying that Africa is all one race and any differences between Africans are because they are “just tribes.” I guess by your conflation of tribe to race then, what the Pygmies suffer from the Bantu is just a bit of inter-tribal height discrimination, or what the Tutsi suffered under the Hutu was just a bit of inter-tribal warfare. No racism at play, nothing to see, hey?

HathorsFigTree · 27/04/2023 09:12

The first to be targetted in Germany in the 1930s and still subject to constant judgement and prejudice.

This is true. The Nazis targeted disabled people, homosexuals, political dissidents, gypsies, but this was eclipsed by the targeting of Jewish people.

Their madness was about trying to preserve genetic ‘purity’, eugenics- the ‘master race’. They needed to make up a load of lies, including claiming that Jewish people were racially different, to serve their vision. There is, I think, evidence that Eva Braun was likely to have had Jewish heritage.

I feel really uncomfortable thinking about this period in history, the heavy heart you get thinking of all those people, it feels insensitive to even try to get inside the heads of what motivated the Nazis, but I believe it was the Jewish intellectual tradition and prosperity which threatened them, and all the lies the Nazis made up were tools they needed to justify targeting them. The gypsies having the freedom of movement across borders also threatened their vision, in the same way that peasants threatened the Communist vision of collectivism, so claiming a group is racially inferior can be a populist justification for shocking Procrustean actions to serve the leaders’ ideological vision.

So I am talking myself round here, and I can see that if a tribe can be racialised to serve the purposes of those who want to persecute them, then it’s effectively no different for the people being persecuted - whether they are being persecuted as a tribe or as a made-up ‘race’.

I think it gets tricky when we pull ourselves into the present century and people are being targeted for what are arguably actual ‘racial’ differences and wish to focus on that specifically, if it is not being differentiated from the experiences of tribes who have historically been classed as a made-up race by their persecutors.

HathorsFigTree · 27/04/2023 09:17

AP5Diva · 27/04/2023 08:41

Hathor, good morning.
“It’s not just skin tone though, is it?” That’s my point! To Diane Abbot it is only skin tone that determines race and therefore racism.

“For some reason, you really want to stick to this idea that ‘tribe/nation’ is the only way of grouping differences between people, therefore ‘race’ and ‘tribe/nation’ are synonymous.” No. Tribes and nations are completely different we haven’t even discussed the concept of a nation and you’ve misunderstood me if you think that I said tribe and race are synonymous.

“Race’ is something perceived with they eyes” or ears. My point is that skin colour isn’t the only thing people see or hear when assessing otherness and then deciding if it’s a race they hate or feel prejudice towards.

“I think it is forced teaming to conflate the meaning of tribe and race” no one is doing that, except for you by implying that Africa is all one race and any differences between Africans are because they are “just tribes.” I guess by your conflation of tribe to race then, what the Pygmies suffer from the Bantu is just a bit of inter-tribal height discrimination, or what the Tutsi suffered under the Hutu was just a bit of inter-tribal warfare. No racism at play, nothing to see, hey?

I do think for the Hutu and Tutsis, etc, it is tribal warfare.

ScrollingLeaves · 27/04/2023 09:36

Isn’t racism like tribalism writ large?

caringcarer · 27/04/2023 09:48

No, she is a prize biggot. To suggest holocaust survivors did not face racial discrimination because they were Jewish is just vile and ridiculous in equal measure.

HathorsFigTree · 27/04/2023 09:49

ScrollingLeaves · 27/04/2023 09:36

Isn’t racism like tribalism writ large?

I think the difference is that a tribe shares a common culture, language, belief, and ethnicity as well as DNA.

With a race, the only commonality is in your physical body.

I think the only tribes which still exist in Europe are Gypsies, Jews and the Sami. I would be fascinated to know if there are others though.

HathorsFigTree · 27/04/2023 10:00

caringcarer · 27/04/2023 09:48

No, she is a prize biggot. To suggest holocaust survivors did not face racial discrimination because they were Jewish is just vile and ridiculous in equal measure.

Prejudice against Jews was always called antisemitism. It is only recently that the word ‘racism’ has really been broadened out to include xenophobia, prejudice against gypsies, etc. I think I have even heard the word ‘racism’ being used to describe prejudice against Polish people.

HathorsFigTree · 27/04/2023 10:04

I find the use of the word ‘vile’ - actually also the word ‘bigot’, to be red flags 🚩

They are the devices used by people who hate discussion, who hate free-thinking and have absolutely nothing of value to add.

ScrollingLeaves · 27/04/2023 10:11

HathorsFigTree · Today 09:49

“ScrollingLeaves” · Today 09:36

“Isn’t racism like tribalism writ large?”

I think the difference is that a tribe shares a common culture, language, belief, and ethnicity as well as DNA

Thanks for the clear explanation. I think you are right. On the other hand, though, sometimes it seems racism manifests itself having perceptions about another group which sees them as having “another”, “wrong”, “alien” culture and belief system as well as a different ethnicity and DNA.

It will be heard as ‘they’ do this, and ‘they do that’.

DemiColon · 27/04/2023 10:20

HathorsFigTree · 27/04/2023 08:08

It’s not just skin tone though, is it?

For some reason, you really want to stick to this idea that ‘tribe/nation’ is the only way of grouping differences between people, therefore ‘race’ and ‘tribe/nation’ are synonymous.

However, in order for this to be true, you completely deny the other significant differences between people which are nothing whatsoever to do with tribe or nation, yet is on the basis that racism is suffered.

Why is it so important for you to treat these two different things as though they are identical?

When I was in a swimming pool, as a child, in a different European country, I heard lots of whispering, murmuring and saw some furtive pointing, I looked around and saw a black kid in the pool (something totally normal at home in London). It wasn’t hostility, but curiosity and astonishment from all the kids. If someone from a Caucasian tribe was in that pool, no one would have batted an eyelid.

‘Race’ is something perceived with they eyes, ‘tribe/nation’ is invisible unless there are deliberately placed cultural markers like clothes, tattooing, etc.

I think it is forced teaming to conflate the meaning of tribe and race, which disadvantages those who suffer racism with no tribal component. I believe Diane Abbot was trying to say this, but completely screwed up.

A lot of the time race is a rather crude rendering of ethnicity. So you lump together everyone of European, or African, or Asian ethnicity into a "race."

Of course this has changed over time. It wasn't just the Irish who were once considered a different European race - the English and French used to think of themselves as different races as well. Roughly following ethnicity which can in fact be traced back to different European tribal groups.

Similarly, there is no particularly obvious reason why a person from Ethiopia should be lumped together with the San people who live in the Kalahari desert. Sure, they are both more brown than most people of European origin, but they don't really look anything alike and aren't likely to be particularly closely related genetically.

The people in the pool would likely notice both, and might lump them together, especially if they have learned to interpret race in a pretty generalized kind of way. But it's still quite a crude and arbitrary way to categorize people that is often much less accurate than ethnicity or tribe.

caringcarer · 27/04/2023 10:20

HathorsFigTree · 27/04/2023 10:00

Prejudice against Jews was always called antisemitism. It is only recently that the word ‘racism’ has really been broadened out to include xenophobia, prejudice against gypsies, etc. I think I have even heard the word ‘racism’ being used to describe prejudice against Polish people.

The clues in the word 'racism' it's discrimination against a race. Jews are clearly seen as a race. There are absolutely no excuses for her vile statement and I am very glad she has withdrawn it. Some black people seem to think only they can suffer from racism. She is clearly one of them.

JolyGoodBloviator · 27/04/2023 10:43

HathorsFigTree · 27/04/2023 10:00

Prejudice against Jews was always called antisemitism. It is only recently that the word ‘racism’ has really been broadened out to include xenophobia, prejudice against gypsies, etc. I think I have even heard the word ‘racism’ being used to describe prejudice against Polish people.

Xenophobia (the word) is definitely out of style, although Xenophobia (the phenomenon) continues a pace (often exhibited by middle class people who would deny they have any prejudices).

Perhaps that’s why it’s become useful to use racism as an umbrella term rather than one that refers to prejudices between people of differing skin colours?

Almost one wants to be thought of or described as or accused of being a racist - we (general we) are scared to have conversations about these topics because we know racism is wrong and we don’t want to risk blundering into something that will bring accusations of race our way.

Yet other similar sorts of prejudice, eg xenophobia, tribalism, sectarianism have not been treated with a similar seriousness, despite the worst-case consequences being just as bad (genocide). Lots of people don’t really seem to understand what antisemitism actually is, or at least not how it manifests (which is the crux of Labour’s problem).

If Racism is the worst offence imaginable on the progressive stack, it’s understandable that people who suffer from other forms of prejudice might a) object to that and b) come in sideways, as in current day limited character online discourse it’s likely quicker and easier to convince normies that anti Polish prejudice as a form of racism than it is to get a wide consensus that Xenophobic hate is just as destructive for humanity as Racist hate.

A particular ludicrous example of other IDPOL factions using the general abhorrence of racism (and fear of being accused of racism) to further their own cause is Stonewall’s CEO saying that lesbians who don’t do dick are ‘sexual racists’.

The real problem, of course, is the progressive stack itself. An IDPOL hierarchy creates blind spots (eg antisemitism can flourish in the shadows while everyone is looking at BLM) and history can repeat if we don’t keep reminding ourselves of it.

That’d why I do genuinely think our EQ10 had the right idea, in that it acknowledges that clashes can happen in all sorts of directions, and that prejudice against ‘the other’ can be rooted in more than just skin colour, and that all prejudice can be equally catastrophic for humanity.

Diane Abbott has a blind spot.
A blind spot that is fashionable on the left, especially amongst those whose politics are overly influenced by American culture.

The Observer article Diane Abbott wrote in response to was an attempt to correct that blind spot.

Is Diane Abbott right that only Black people experience racism and other ethnic groups experience prejudice?
JolyGoodBloviator · 27/04/2023 10:45

Crikey, that’s an annoying typo!

obviously what I meant was…

Almost no one wants to be thought of, or described as, or accused of being, a racist

HathorsFigTree · 27/04/2023 10:52

DemiColon · 27/04/2023 10:20

A lot of the time race is a rather crude rendering of ethnicity. So you lump together everyone of European, or African, or Asian ethnicity into a "race."

Of course this has changed over time. It wasn't just the Irish who were once considered a different European race - the English and French used to think of themselves as different races as well. Roughly following ethnicity which can in fact be traced back to different European tribal groups.

Similarly, there is no particularly obvious reason why a person from Ethiopia should be lumped together with the San people who live in the Kalahari desert. Sure, they are both more brown than most people of European origin, but they don't really look anything alike and aren't likely to be particularly closely related genetically.

The people in the pool would likely notice both, and might lump them together, especially if they have learned to interpret race in a pretty generalized kind of way. But it's still quite a crude and arbitrary way to categorize people that is often much less accurate than ethnicity or tribe.

The people in the pool would likely notice both, and might lump them together, especially if they have learned to interpret race in a pretty generalized kind of way. But it's still quite a crude and arbitrary way to categorize people that is often much less accurate than ethnicity or tribe.

I think this is a big part of it.

If you are in a territory, which has for millennia been populated by a number of ethnicities and tribes (who have generally lost most of their defining ethnic characteristics through centuries of occupation, and so on), which could crudely and broadly be called ‘white people’, and you are from a territory where no one indigenous has those distinctive physical characteristics (the pale skin, straighter hair, prominent nose bridge), you are suddenly going to notice that you are defined by not having these characteristics, not by what you may have always defined yourself by - tribal/ethnic characteristics.

Although there is huge diversity across your continent of origin, in terms of culture, language, belief, tradition and DNA, the only difference that matter at this time, in this place, would be how you differ from the others around you. These ‘white people’ have a fair amount of diversity between them - different heights, builds, facial structure, hair colour and eye colour, so the fact that, for example, your tribe tends to be really tall and prides itself upon this, that height isn’t relevant in this situation in as far as setting you apart as ‘different’.

HathorsFigTree · 27/04/2023 10:55

ScrollingLeaves · 27/04/2023 10:11

HathorsFigTree · Today 09:49

“ScrollingLeaves” · Today 09:36

“Isn’t racism like tribalism writ large?”

I think the difference is that a tribe shares a common culture, language, belief, and ethnicity as well as DNA

Thanks for the clear explanation. I think you are right. On the other hand, though, sometimes it seems racism manifests itself having perceptions about another group which sees them as having “another”, “wrong”, “alien” culture and belief system as well as a different ethnicity and DNA.

It will be heard as ‘they’ do this, and ‘they do that’.

Yes. Agreed. I only read this after writing my last post.

HathorsFigTree · 27/04/2023 11:03

JolyGoodBloviator · 27/04/2023 10:43

Xenophobia (the word) is definitely out of style, although Xenophobia (the phenomenon) continues a pace (often exhibited by middle class people who would deny they have any prejudices).

Perhaps that’s why it’s become useful to use racism as an umbrella term rather than one that refers to prejudices between people of differing skin colours?

Almost one wants to be thought of or described as or accused of being a racist - we (general we) are scared to have conversations about these topics because we know racism is wrong and we don’t want to risk blundering into something that will bring accusations of race our way.

Yet other similar sorts of prejudice, eg xenophobia, tribalism, sectarianism have not been treated with a similar seriousness, despite the worst-case consequences being just as bad (genocide). Lots of people don’t really seem to understand what antisemitism actually is, or at least not how it manifests (which is the crux of Labour’s problem).

If Racism is the worst offence imaginable on the progressive stack, it’s understandable that people who suffer from other forms of prejudice might a) object to that and b) come in sideways, as in current day limited character online discourse it’s likely quicker and easier to convince normies that anti Polish prejudice as a form of racism than it is to get a wide consensus that Xenophobic hate is just as destructive for humanity as Racist hate.

A particular ludicrous example of other IDPOL factions using the general abhorrence of racism (and fear of being accused of racism) to further their own cause is Stonewall’s CEO saying that lesbians who don’t do dick are ‘sexual racists’.

The real problem, of course, is the progressive stack itself. An IDPOL hierarchy creates blind spots (eg antisemitism can flourish in the shadows while everyone is looking at BLM) and history can repeat if we don’t keep reminding ourselves of it.

That’d why I do genuinely think our EQ10 had the right idea, in that it acknowledges that clashes can happen in all sorts of directions, and that prejudice against ‘the other’ can be rooted in more than just skin colour, and that all prejudice can be equally catastrophic for humanity.

Diane Abbott has a blind spot.
A blind spot that is fashionable on the left, especially amongst those whose politics are overly influenced by American culture.

The Observer article Diane Abbott wrote in response to was an attempt to correct that blind spot.

Interesting.

So it seems that by saying “the worst thing is racism”, there will be a push for other different prejudices, which are, in term of impact, equally bad, to be called racism to be taken equally seriously.

And the effect of this, is to make it impossible for people to focus in on the effects ‘racism’ specifically.

And then you get Diane Abbot in a knot because she can’t articulate what she means.

DemiColon · 27/04/2023 11:51

I think there's also a very straightforward element - the EA has a fairly simple but straightforward definition of racism, that is really only meant to be useful for the purposes of the legislation. If you are discriminating because someone is Jewish, it doesn't really matter if it's some kind of racial/tribal hatred, or whether because you have a problem with the Jewish religion, or something else - you can't throw things at peoples' houses or refuse to hire them or whatever.

The progressive left version of racism is now rather different than that, and they even differentiate it from prejudice. It has it's own definitions and assumptions, and even it's own historical narrative, that does not fit in with what the traditional civil rights discourse was, even in the US - it's much closer to what people like the black separatists and nationalists were saying in the 60s and 70s. It sees anti-black racism specifically as its own thing, and as a foundational principle baked into American society.

Abbott seems to have been very influenced by this thinking and she may not see it as having much or anything to do with equalities legislation.

Misstache · 27/04/2023 17:44

There is a specific history of anti-Black racism, though.

“Race” pre-1492 was largely in Europe defined on the basis of religion - either you were Christian, you had not yet heard the word of Christ, or, worst of all in this view you had the opportunity to accept Christ but rejected him (Jews and Muslims) which also meant “just war” could be waged against you. Racism in this sense was wielded against Jewish people inside Europe, and Muslim people abroad in the crusades (as well as Moorish Spain.)

When contact is made with the Americas, initially this schema of Christian souls is transferred onto Indigenous people. Las Casas and Sepulveda hold a famous debate in Spain where Sepulveda argues the “Indians” are “barbarians” (using Aristotle) and therefore just war can be waged against them. Las Casas argues the Indians do have souls, and can be Christianized and also testifies a great deal about the violence and genocide being enacted. Of course, there’s money in the “New World” so the “Indians” continue to be slaughtered.

This Christian/non-Christian scheme is also transferred to African people, justifying slavery. As Locke writes, a captive taken in war can be enslaved, and if is also moral to enslave someone who rejects the word of God - to Christianize them. This justifies enslavement.

As we begin to enter the “Age of Enlightenment,” the discourse shifts from souls to reason. Kant argues that man is defined by reason - an important move into secular thinking. But Kant also was immersed in deeply racist literature and travel narratives and also explicitly believed that that reason only belonged to white European men. This begins the creation of a human scale with white men at the pinnacle, and African people specifically as the opposite - lacking reason and humanity, and beast like.

With the advance of evolutionary theory and biology, those theories are used to categorize and hierarchize humanity. Races begin to be explicitly categorized and labeled and assigned characteristics - this is the birth of “scientific racism.” Different races are given different characteristics, with Black people inhabiting the bestial. It is not that racism doesn’t exist against other races at all - the history of colonization around the globe shows us that - but in this categorization of the human, Black people come to stand in as the absence of the human - the most primitive, the most beastial, the most horrific, the least intelligent.

In Orientalism, Said traces the way the European imagined the “orient” which says more about Europeans than Asian/Middle Eastern people. The “East” was simultaneously seen as exotic and barbarous, infantile and dangerous. Hegel in the Philosophy of History says “Africa has no history. Let us pass over it.” Asia, meanwhile has a “nature” that is barbaric and despotic. Both are racist, but with different impact - Africans aren’t even part of human history. In the late 1800s in particular as exclusionary immigration bills are passed the UK, US, Canada etc to exclude Asian migration, criminal panics and the idea of Chinese as sinister opium dealers emerge. These exclusionary laws are also passed against Jewish people.

This is a very capsule tracing of complex ideas, but the reason for specifically identifying anti-Black racism is that racism is conceived differently for different groups. “Asians” find themselves inhabiting model minority narratives that stereotype them (robotic, emotionless, good at math and science but lacking creativity, interchangeable, smart but no personality, not good leaders, submissive exotic women, sinister and sneaky, etc.) This is racist and damaging but distinctly different from the way racism acts towards Black people - sub-human, not intelligent, bestial, hypersexual, criminal. So in order to not lump these distinct histories together, people identify “Orientalism” as the distinct ways Asian/ME people are seen, Islamophobia for the ways Muslims are seen as terrorists, barbaric etc., anti-Black racism for how Black people have been specifically seen outside the human. Just saying “racism” often means that the people deemed lowest on the human hierarchy - Africans - are ignored (saying “racism” in schools for example won’t capture the specific ways Black students are seen as unintelligent, low achieving, discipline problems, from pathological families and cultures, etc.)

Through the 19th C in particular, anti- Semitism actually argued Jewish people were too civilized and cosmopolitan. While Africans and the “natives” around the world were seen as primitive and savage, Jewish people were seen as hyper-civilized (controlling banks, insidiously infiltrating government, global conspiracy, etc.) If race mixing was to be feared for lowering the white human race, Jewish people were dangerous because one might not know they were Jewish and they could infiltrate. While natives needed to be civilized, justifying colonization and slaughter, Jewish people represented the opposite pole - the fear that (whenever whites lost against their opponents) Europeans were becoming too soft and feminized (the crisis over the Boer War for example.) This tension - whites are the only civilized people, but civilization makes you weak - is one of the ironies of white supremacy. Jews, seen as hyper-intellectual, physically weak, and infiltrators of the nation, become the scapegoats for this anxiety.

These racial ideas were also protected onto Irish people, Scottish people, working class whites, miners, Eastern Europeans at various points. Whiteness as we understand it is a recent, late 19th C construction - in response to internal and external threats to Empire - “ whiteness” is expanded to accept Irish people, Slavs, etc. who would previously have also been seen as lower people.

But while Irish etc get absorbed into whiteness eventually, Black people are always seen as the opposite pole from white humanity. The structure of race itself rests on this supposed fundamental opposition of Blackness to white humanity. In the hierarchy, Blackness rests firmly at the bottom. These conceptions brought to us through the Age of Reason, solidified by slavery and science and law, continue today to label Blackness as outside the human. Which is why specifically understanding anti-Black racism is necessary in understanding the history of constructing race, period.

So Abbott expressed herself badly and ignorantly - racism doesn’t just exist for Black people, but she’s not wrong in recognizing that we can’t address racism as one lump, it has specificities in history and contemporary life for each group.

ScrollingLeaves · 27/04/2023 19:00

Misstache · Today 17:44
There is a specific history of anti-Black racism, though. ………………

Re your whole post. 👏👏👏

What a wonderfully clear exposition in capsule form for what racism has meant according to how various groups were perceived throughout history, and why it is that racism experienced by black people has a particularly invidious character of its own.

You have made that clear without critical race theory too I think ( I am pretty ignorant.)

If only Diane Abbot had had you to help her not make such a mess of what she may have been trying to say.

AP5Diva · 27/04/2023 20:07

Misstache, very eloquent summary of the meaning of “race” from 1492 to the present.

Pre 1942 I disagree with as race did not refer to religion at all with Christians being a “race”. One need only look that the racism and genocide that occurred between races of the same religion during pre1942 within and outside Europe to discern that fact.

In addition, post 1492 racism against Asians also dehumanised them as well. The model minority is a relatively new concept and the examples used aren’t meant to be confused with the only racism that Asians have suffered. Take a look at this old cartoon from 1837. Is the Chinese man being depicted as a model minority? He has a sign round his neck saying “destroyer of women and children” and is being whipped like a dog by “civilised” white Americans.

Whiteness as we understand it is a recent, late 19th C construction - in response to internal and external threats to Empire - “ whiteness” is expanded to accept Irish people, Slavs, etc. who would previously have also been seen as lower people. This did not happen. We’ve all read how Cromwell’s army referred to the Irish in the 17th century, but even in the late 19th century we still had people like Charles Kingsley calling the Irish “white chimpanzees” when writing about the millions dying during the potato famine. Even in the 20th c. We had the “no Irish need apply” signs…how is that showing the Irish were no longer seen as a lower people?

For Jewish people, not sure how you can even claim that they were not ever dehumanised like Black Africans have been. The Nazis labelled the gas canisters as poison for rodents. They put them in cattle cars and livestock lorries. They gave them numbers tattooed on their skin- like you’d brand a sheep. I can go on, but it gets distressing. But seriously, the Jews have been repeatedly dehumanised as part of the racism they faced all down through history.

No, Black African peoples are not unique in that racism included dehumanising, that is part and parcel of almost all racism.

AP5Diva · 27/04/2023 20:08

Sorry, I wrote pre 1942 and I meant to write pre 1492.

PorcelinaV · 27/04/2023 20:19

or, worst of all in this view you had the opportunity to accept Christ but rejected him (Jews and Muslims) which also meant “just war” could be waged against you. Racism in this sense was wielded against Jewish people inside Europe, and Muslim people abroad in the crusades (as well as Moorish Spain.)

Do you have a source for the "just war" allowed war against those that rejected Christianity?

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