Is Diane Abbott right that only Black people experience racism and other ethnic groups experience prejudice?

[IwantToRetire]

Diane Abbott has been suspended as a Labour MP pending an investigation into a letter she wrote about racism to the Observer, the party has said.

The politician said "many types of white people with points of difference" can experience prejudice, in a letter published on Sunday.

But they are not subject to racism "all their lives", she said.

She later tweeted to say she was withdrawing her remarks and apologised "for any anguish caused".

Labour said the comments were "deeply offensive and wrong".

Suspending the whip means Ms Abbott will not be allowed to represent Labour in the House of Commons, where she will now sit as an independent MP.

In the letter, she wrote that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people "undoubtedly experience prejudice", which she said is "similar to racism".

She continued: "It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice.

"But they are not all their lives subject to racism.

"In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus.

"In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote.

"And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships."

She had been responding to a comment piece in the Guardian questioning the view that racism "only affects people of colour".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65365978

No. Calling racism as what it is: racism doesn’t deny anyone their own heritage, history or struggles at all. It is separating out anyone who happens to have lighter skin and minimising the racism they experience/have experienced by saying it is/was less than and only “prejudice” that denies them their heritage, history and struggles.

Saying one group has it worse is not the same as saying no one else suffers but there are so many specific things Black Britons go through that are unique to them.
People slate DA because she sent her son to a private school, without really understanding why her reasons might be different than a white persons.
The Birmingham 6 (!) and the Jewish kid in Stamford Hill face racism and prejudice. Black people face racism and prejudice. Both are true.

Roses, yes there are Jewish people who present as fairly diverse racial types, but there is also Jewish DNA. It is a religion, but also a culture, and a distinct ethnicity.

“Under this newer definition racism can’t be said to exist against those who are seen as the natural beneficiaries of said societal structures. Namely white people in predominately white societies.”

Thats not really the case in academia. Racism was expanded into different types of racism to include concepts like structural and institutional racism, but at not point were the definitions of racism between individuals or of what a racist is dropped. They still exist in academia, in our laws, and in our dictionaries.

And genetically, there is more variation within “races” over-simplistically categorised by skin tone than between them.

And their current persecution in Russia.

Personally, one of the resons I no longer identfy with the term 'feminist' is because I no longer buy into the intersectionalist style analysis that suggests that all men are responsible for what some men do or for how some men behave, or have done or behaved in the past. The suggestion that all men are part of the problem - form some sort of 'patriarchy' which is an intentionally constructed institutionalised oppression of women. That women are victims by definition.

I bought into that somewhat in the 1980's - but not anymore. A lot of what passes as feminism seems to me now as nothing but hatred of men in general - with sweeping generalisations. The other day one poster wondered whether it was even posssible for men to be decent human beings. That I sad I knew lots of lovely, decent men was met with total cynicism and the suggestions I must have low standards.

@AP5Diva
We are arguing the same thing, I meant you cannot group anyone's experience together and say they are the same. It just doesn't work that way. I wasn't making a case that prejudice is the same as racism or otherwise
There is a case for some types of racism as being worse when the threat is to their lives. But I am not sure anyone can categorically say that there is an exclusive group that is more at risk. It depends on the context, such as the place and time. Are Jewish people killed in the streets in the US for being jewish? I have no idea. But the threat feels more real to a black person in that country. However in other parts of the world the danger is different of course.
There is no point in arguing on a phenomenon which changes context so hugely, perhaps its better to address things in a considerate way and educate as far as anyone can?

“We are arguing the same thing, I meant you cannot group anyone's experience together and say they are the same. It just doesn't work that way. I wasn't making a case that prejudice is the same as racism or otherwise”

Sorry! I thought you were doing exactly that. 🤭

”I am not sure anyone can categorically say that there is an exclusive group that is more at risk. It depends on the context, such as the place and time.“

Exactly. That is why racism cannot be compared to sexism. Whereas women have been universally oppressed, we cannot say the same of any race.

Jews are a race. In legal terms too. The Jews have not been persecuted throughout history because they are religious. You don't have to be a religious to be Jewish, or to to suffer persecution and stereotyping. There is also a very definite 'jewish' look - which not everyone conforms to, but many do.

I’m talking about here and now. Every country on Earth has a racist nay-on-genocidal past. What matters is here and now - how are people treated in the U.K. today? It’s very very clear that black people suffer worse racism than any other group, far far worse than somebody with an Irish grandparent. When was the last incident of police racism against Irish people? When was the last time an Irish person was attacked?

As a reminder, here is the article DA was responding to, and also an interesting graph related to racism/prejudice in the U.K.

Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue. It’s far more complicated | Tomiwa Owolade | The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/15/racism-in-britain-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue-it-is-far-more-complicated

Explanation of the graph is you did not click it open.

^More than a third of people from ethnic
and religious minorities have
experienced some form of racist assault
% experiencing racist insults, property damage or physical attacks prior to the pandemic^

Thank you scrolling leaves.

40% of Irish people in the UK report having experienced this.

What matters is here and now - how are people treated in the U.K. today?

Then why was DA citing the transatlantic slave trade and US Jim Crow laws?

If its the most recent bad thing, the Birmingham 6 trumps sitting at the back of a bus.
It was more recent and it actually happened in Britain.

I am a bit suspicious as to why this thread is in sex and gender.

MissMissive - sorry was your comment aimed at me?

Do you understand what is meant by 'passing'?

It's up to each individual to educate themselves. I suggest you do so before manipulating my words. In fact your comment is so deeply offensive, it's worthy of reporting.

I will explain briefly to give you something to think about. Some protected characteristics are obvious ALL OF THE TIME. There is no time that those individuals will not be treated as 'other' Some people's protected characteristics/ identities are not obvious. It makes their identity and experience of that group no less significant, but means that they will not be treated differently ALL THE TIME.

Please remember you are replying to other human beings (using their words no less) Be more thoughtful and less ignorant in your responses.

I don’t know, I’m not her advisor am I?

Passing isn’t about ‘hiding’, it’s about whether going about your day to day life will expose you to bigotry because your ethnicity or religion is visibly obvious. So this will be very high risk for black peoples and Orthodox Jews. Much lower risk for somebody with an irish grandparent or Rachel Riley.

I can't comment on that suggestion, but from what I have heard and witnessed I would say that it is a genuinely held belief amongst those Black activists who hold that view.

Passing isn’t about ‘hiding’, it’s about whether going about your day to day life will expose you to bigotry because your ethnicity or religion is visibly obvious. So this will be very high risk for black peoples and Orthodox Jews. Much lower risk for somebody with an irish grandparent or Rachel Riley.

What is unexpected is that the graph in the Guardian article shows the highest percentage of racist insults, property damage or physical attacks prior to the pandemic.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/15/racism-in-britain-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue-it-is-far-more-complicated

in order from the highest:

Gypsy traveller
Other black ( what does that mean?)
Jewish
Mixed white/black African
Mixed white/black Caribbean
Roma
Black Caribbean
White Irish
Bangladeshi
Pakistani
Overall
Black African
Other mixed/multiple
Indian
Chinese ( this was pre the pandemic so might it have increased?)
Mixed white/Asian
Other Asian
Other ethnic group
Arab

@NotHavingIt Jews are a race. In legal terms too. The Jews have not been persecuted throughout history because they are religious. You don't have to be a religious to be Jewish, or to to suffer persecution and stereotyping. There is also a very definite 'jewish' look - which not everyone conforms to, but many do.
All the googling I am doing suggests Jews are not a race. They are multi race orioles who follow Judaism. There are black Jews and white Jews so how can Jews be a race? There are literally people if different races who are Jews.

To my mind the percentages seem high. Annoyingly they don't say what they mean by 'prior to the pandemic'. A month prior or all their previous lives?