Transwomen can't be a subset of women

[literalviolence]

..unless women and transwomen have something in common.

Subset are a part of a larger group of related things.

Thing is, I have nothing in common with trans women. No woman who does not have a gender identity does. There are lots of us who don't have a gender identity.

Thoughts?

*your

This.

Many men have fetishes. It's hardly rare. Likewise effeminate men, confused gay men suffering from homophobia, internal or external (exacerbated by trans ideology).

It's hardly unusual for men to be sexually driven, to enjoy dominating women, to get a kick out of intimidating them.

Far from being a subset, transwomen are just common or garden men who've found a new way to oppress women. The only difference, this time, is they've managed to bill it as being progressive.

You are correct. Trans women can't be a subset of women because all trans women are biological men.

I guess that at a push, and if needs must, trans women are a subset of men. But really, they're just men.

yes if the original set is "people who love getting their nails done" and the sorting is by declared response to the question "what is your Gender Identity?" "TW" "NB" "Cis women" "None / other / prefer not to say" might be sensible sub sets. Outside of maybe market research for a nail salon though that might not be a super helpful question

I would say we have a lot in common with TW. Misogyny and the experience of that as a start. TW are seen as women. They are treated as women. Society treats them the same - though arguably worse, as they are also mocked by cis women.

You, personally, might have much in common with males with trans identities, but women as a collective do not.

Those individuals are not seen as ‘women’ except by a minority. The polls confirm this time and time again. As does most organisations making policy when it comes to the finer points.

Even UK prison services do not see these individuals as ‘women’. This has been proven. So your continued attempts at portraying society and government as seeing them as women is false and has been for a while.

This totally.

It's like Rachel Dolezal, a trans-black woman is part of a subset of black women. I imagine that most black women would be pretty irritated by that.

Ah yes, that well known trans logic phenomena. They're exactly the same, and you don't know they're there, even though you treat them completely differently.

I wish we could just keep it genetically relevant.

no amount of surgery, make up or clothing will change the fact we are either a female or a male.

im not a women because I wear make up, have long hair, breasts, and wear what society class as feminine clothing. I’m a women because I have eggs and can carry and create life with the use of a sperm.
If I made my hair short and made myself look masculine I’m still a women.

identifying as something doesn’t mean that’s what we are.

ill always respect how someone chooses to dress and live their life, but talking to people these days is becoming impossible without causing offence.

Umm… no. They do not experience misogyny because they are not female. Only females experience misogyny. Males would experience something completely different. Are you saying a woman who has never experience misogyny is not a woman? Because unless all women and all males with a trans identity have experienced misogyny, and no female with a trans identity has, then your point is invalid. For males with a trans identity to be a subset of women, you must show a characteristic that all males with a trans identity share in common with all women and that they do not share with men or females with a trans identity.

MishyJDI · Today 09:16

I would say we have a lot in common with TW. Misogyny and the experience of that as a start. TW are seen as women. They are treated as women. Society treats them the same - though arguably worse, as they are also mocked by cis women.

I don't agree. TW may see themselves as women, but I genuinely don't think that they are seen as women by the public at large. I expect that their friendship group will validate them to be kind but even they will know the truth. A TW will never know what it is like to navigate the world as a woman, just as I will never know what it is like to navigate the world as a TW.

And as TW are not seen as women, they are not treated the same as women, they are treated as men who want us to pretend that they are something they are not. It is up to an individual whether they choose to go along with that or not.

Given that most people in society know full well when they are dealing with a TW, there's no basis for TW and women to experience the same oppression. Plus TW are raised as boys and for many did not present themselves as trans for many adult years. Are you saying that if we address misogyny, TW are no longer women?

How depressing to define women as people who are oppressed by men. That's not how I define myself.

And it rather begs the question of why any man would choose to identify as a woman.

PS - male people cannot experience misogyny.

This is absolute nonsense.

They do not experience misogyny because they are not female.

They are not seen as women by most people, and they are not treated as women by anyone. Obviously people who do not see them as women do not treat them as women, and people who claim to see them as women treat them better than they treat actual women, e.g. by prioritising their gender identity over actual women's rights and safety.

I've no idea what planet you're living on if you think people like Karen White and Lia Thomas are treated worse than women.

Ah @MargotBamborough they are not identifying as the “ women as universal service humans “ stereotype. They are identifying as the “ women as sexual objects “ stereotypes.

that’s why there is a lot of wearing of clothes , underwear, hairstyles, nails , san pro, pyjamas parties, high heels, girly chat about make up etc

and very little about being paid 13% less for doing the same job, endometriosis, the pain, discomfort and permanent damage from pregnancy and childbirth, doing all the housework and wifework, stress incontinence , being invisible past 50 etc

I will take “ transwomen as women “ a lot more seriously when I meet one who is 45 , used to have a a good career but gave it up to run the house and care for the children because “ their husbands careers is more important “ so they now work back shift on the till in Tesco. They dress in jeans , trainers and a top and spent their weekends looking after their husbands granny who is housebound ( because he is a busy working all week and needs time off ). And they would like to spend more time and money on clothes / make up / hobbies for themselves but they are saving for the kids school trip later this year and the gas and electric bills have doubled.

That’s the kind of woman I have a lot in common with.

If one were to imagine a hypothetical mathematical type "flow chart" with the little boxes and arrows leading on to other boxes, there would be a box at the top labelled "human", then it would split off into two lower boxes labelled "male" and "female".
Under the female box it would split further down into "straight", "lesbian", "trans man", "insert your choice of endless endless sexuality here" etc.
Under the male box it would split further down into "straight", "gay", "trans woman", "insert your choice of sexuality here".

Obviously trans women cannot fall under the "female" path of this flow chart because they do not belong to the "female" box.

Therefore they are not a subset of any kind of "woman".
They fail at the first hurdle (ie, they are male).

Likewise, women cannot be transwomen. Because they do not fall under the "male" heading.

And before any rampant TRAs decide to whine about DSDs, they still fall into the male or female headings under "human".
There is not a human in the world who does not fall into one of the two categories.

There is not a human in the world who does not fall into one of the two categories.

And even if there was one, it have sweet FA to do with transgender people despite individuals with DSDs being used against their will as some sort of "gotcha" by TRAs.

Schrodinger’s trans people.

Trans women can experience homophobia, but not misogyny. Mainly because everyone knows they're men.

Except that they are mostly heterosexual men.

The group 'cis' women is probably a tiny one in reality, because the definition of 'cis' means someone whose abstract gender identity just happens to match her or his sex.

Most of us don't have the kind of abstract gendered soul that this definition implicitly uses, so most of us can't be 'cis' even if we never transitioned.

Forcing the term on us is like a religious sect which calls non-believers heathens demanding that all non-believers also call themselves 'heathens.' And when non-believers complain, they are told that all 'heathens' means is a non-believer of the tenets of that sect. Nothing to see here, move on.

This forces us to act as if the gender identity ideology is true and something every single person believes in.

Which is the point of the exercise, of course. It turns 'women' and 'men' into feelings-categories, and it turns female women into the privileged part of the new woman-as-feelings classification.

In this new category (created by an authoritarian fiat by a small minority which is busy erasing all references to the female sex class) trans women would, indeed, be a sub-section of 'women', and the more oppressed one, too.

But in that system we won't be able to address sex-based oppression very well, given that we are not allowed to even have a name for its victims.

I came on to say this.^^

Transwomen are cannot be a subset of women. They are a subset of men. Transmen are a subset of women.

FLO Your post is brilliant and so accurate.