Why has it always been a patriarchy?

[4plusthehound]

DD came home from school the other day and asked this question.

Am stumped.

Can anyone help me? 😂

When I was about 18 I was in a big central library browsing the books. It was most likely the mythology section as I was also interested in goddesses and in feminine/masculine archetypes. I had my hair dyed lilac and was wearing my then customary black clothing - and this guy approached me and told me I looked like 'Lilith'. It was not long after that that I started reading 'Descent To the Goddess' by Sylvia Brinton Perera - which focuses on the myth of Persephone

"Pioneer study of the need for an inner female authority in a masculine-oriented society. Interprets the journey into the underworld of Inanna-Ishtar, Goddess of Heaven and Earth, to see Ereshkigal, her dark sister.

So modern women must descend from their old role-determined behaviour into the depths of their instinct and image patterns, to find anew the Great Goddess and restore her values to modern culture"

This deep archetypal female power became the template for much of my 'feminism' during my late teens and twenties.

I've known lots of lovely, beautiful, kind, considerate men, and have two sons who are the same - though each with their own temperament and set of interests. @NotHavingIt

And that sounds great, I hope it’s true.
And I don’t understand why you said it’s ’misanthropic’ (I think you may have used the wrong word, I know many women are great people, I am one) and what I want is to men be great. That would be, well, great.
All I was doing wondering if that is even a possibility.
It’s good you know many ’lovely’ men, of course I don’t know what your standards are, so I’ll take it with a grain of salt, I’m sure you can understand.
I’ll just say once more so that no one calls me a hater, I’m rooting for boys and men to get better and to be decent human beings.

Of course it's a possibility. Most men are as good or bad as women, a mixture of such traits, depending on context.

There is a minority of men who are truly wrong, prone to violence or abuse. Very (VERY)* rough estimates suggest perhaps around 1 in 20, 5% of men, are this type of 'wrong un'. Which is high, in terms of risk of meeting them, but clearly a minority.

The trouble is, really, that it's men that commit almost all crime, so it can look terrifyingly like a sex trait. I found it helpful to put it in perspective by digging into some stats to try and arrive at a figure (as I said, hugely rough, it's a very complex subject to try and asses) and assure myself that it is indeed a small minority.

*I really can't stress enough how rough this estimate is! I looked at some of the ONS stats and crime stats and tried to find a rough figure, but I'm not qualified and it's obviously a very big and complex question.

I have high standards. I expect people to be decent and to have integrity. I also don't like to make sweeping negative generalisations about whole populations or groups. We each have our own responsibility.

Whether or not you believe me or take my words with a grain of salt is entirely your prerogative, but you do seem to have a very jaundiced view. Maybe it is the sort of people you hang around with or associate with that is the problem? Certainly if you've never met any good or decent men.

I would be delighted to read more on the incidence of violence, abuse, criminal behaviour etc, among the male population, if anyone has that kind of info. I think it's useful to consider and a way forward that suggests we are able to perhaps tackle those issues.

Do you think the “descent to the underworld” and re-emergence represent for women the fundamental battle for survival and new life that is childbirth?
That is, in stories and myth, men (typically ) get the Quest and Battle stories but women get something more elemental, existential and mysterious?
Also dovetails with folk sayings about the ordeal of childbirth, eg the “bridge you must cross on your own” etc.

The reason I want to retain female only spaces and services - and to maintain the inetgrity of women as a class of human beings - is not so much about male pattern violence for me, as much as about the dignity and privacy of one's sex.

We don't have single sex spaces because all men are perverts or rapists or because there aren't any good men - but because of instinctively felt female vulnerability in certain types of situation.

I think you are onto something.

I think the interiority of female mythologies reflects the interiority of the female body and its experiences; whereas the male drive and sexual organ is focused on the external world.

Women have tended to be associated with transitions and with liminal worlds. Birth/death/dream states/midwives.

Elaine Morgan was a very interesting woman. My Dad knew her slightly growing up and bought me her book The Descent of the Child. This has prompted me to go and read her books again.

Well, yes, aren't the pomegranite seeds a symbol of the missed periods during pregnancy? I read about this, can't remember where now ...

@4plusthehound I have read Sapiens. He puts forward the settled agriculture theory that has been discussed upthread and it makes a lot of sense. I got a bit frustrated with that section though because it is by its prehistoric nature unknowable, and he talked about a lot that was unverifiable. Like one PP said, it shouldn’t be up to feminism to point to the perfect prelapsarian state and say “found it!” but to build it in today’s world.

Having said that, there has since been published a graphic-novel version of Sapiens in two volumes, aimed at YA, which I recently read and found better than the original! There the idea of pre agricultural societies is explored in more depth and compared more to some societies today, with more speculation about matriarchy and cooperation (cooperation being important to evolution too). It’s a fascinating read, I recommend it. Fun to read!

From there I tend to go with others who have linked sex and class oppression with hoarding of resources.

I also agree biology is important- it needn’t be 100% determinant but it’s an uphill struggle and you need laws, technology and societal cooperation for biology not to be ultimately detrimental to women’s achievement of fully realised lives. The focus on nuclear families without outside help disables women once you have kids.

As I get older I also subscribe to the “grandmother hypothesis” - once you are past childbearing and have been around a while, you are more useful to the tribe as a holder of wisdom. Some men tend not to like this…

There have been all these little figurines found, just about everywhere in Europe and the Middle East of female deities. It has to be about childbirth for women. In the myth about Demeter and crops growing there is the idea of the seed growing in the darkness underground. I love the fact she was such an important Goddess and her mourning the loss of her daughter to the underworld causes winter. Such an important festival and it’s about the relationship between two women mother and daughter. I also find it interesting the smutty humour which cheered Demeter up while she was mourning. Iambe came and made her laugh, by lifting up her skirt and - I think, - pretending her vulva was a mouth and kind of puppeting with it to make it say “you all know that this is where you come from”. So women having a bit of a giggle during mourning is part of the Thesmophoria women-only festival.

That’s interesting! I love how sometimes in myths there are things hiding in plain sight until someone points them out!

The symbolism of Easter is similar:
Easter/ Oestrus/ Ishtar
Spring/ Rebirth
Death/ Faith/ Rebirth
Egg/ Rolling away the stone

There are clearly very old stories about the gods of winter and spring being overwritten by Christianity. (Sorry Christians - I’m more fascinated by the common symbolism and the ancient reverence for life returning, than any single religious interpretation.)

Can't find any reference to pomegranite seeds and periods. Maybe I dreamed it.

Most readings seem to be saying the Persephone/Demeter story is a reference to agriculture, which is interesting given the theories about patriarchy relating to agriculture. And the story being a woman stolen/snatched by a man.

Suggestions the story is based on earlier story of Sumerian Ereshkigal.

The myth of Persephone is certainly one story that involves pomegranate seeds:

Catholicism certainly took on board the centrality of the mother in the creation of Mary - who interecedes with God on behalf of humanity. It is to Mary that Catholics pray.

One thing I used to like about teaching in catholic schools was the seasonal rhythm of the year - with all the saints days and festivals.

I wonder if being closer to the land was better for women - more respect for natural rhythms and processes, more need for while families to pitch in, everyone’s work valued?
It was the Industrial Revolution that put the angel in the house
However it’s important not to romanticise this either.

Yesm there is something about technology which takes us further away from the earth, from natural cycles, from the 'goddes'. Each new technological age has 'liberated' us from our earth bound nature.......but the downside of that is that the female/the mother gets more and more erased the further technology develops...until 'woman' becomes a mere symbol - which brings us to transgenderism and to other transhumanist projects.

Agreed. But you can’t transcend material reality, as I think we’re all concurring here.

No!

But every type of Utopian dream or political vision seems to be predicated on doing so.

I’ve heard that there is a variation in the number of pomegranate seeds she swallowed and that relates to how many months the winter lasts. And since Selene (goddess of the moon) had daughters called the ‘Menai’ which is where ‘menstruation’ comes to - meaning months, it would make sense that the seeds related to her periods.

Some men tend not to like this…

...and some men do tend to like it, I guess. Funny they never get a mention, eh?

Maybe it is the sort of people you hang around with or associate with that is the problem?

😁 I knew it was coming!

Do they watch porn? Gone to strip clubs?
This is always where they fail on my end.
Like I said, I have high standards, even when it’s difficult.

Still fingers crossed I get to meet these good one’s!