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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Naked Education C4

37 replies

Scoldsidol · 19/04/2023 13:01

I haven’t watched this on TV because my partner would rather poke his own eyes out than sit through a programme where ‘exhibitionist members of the public get their kit off’. I on the other hand was fascinated by the premise of this programme. I do think that many people are far too hung up about their bodies - and that unfortunately many of us can’t disassociate nudity from sex (I’m including myself here sometimes)

But I am also full of trepidation about everyone becoming SO obsessed with nudity and naked bodies and it allowing a desensitisation to situations where nudity is not appropriate and is in fact ‘exposure’. What’s the intent? It’s always my question.

Anyway I decided to watch Episode 3 on All4 which featured a woman who was very self-conscious of her breasts to the point of absolute self-disgust. And it also featured a young trans man (27) who had had their breasts surgically removed. And an older transman (40+) who had had a full phalloplasty. Finn, the older trans man has written extensively about the multiple surgeries they’ve been through - he published a book a few years ago. He didn’t have an easy ride and also now has issues of chronic fatigue which can floor him for days. Whether this is related to the battering his body has taken over the years, I don’t know. I’ve followed him on Instagram for years - he’s a lovely person and the fact that, despite the agonies he’s gone through with the surgeries, he would still do the same again, is testament to how awful his gender dysphasia must have been.

The younger transman showed us their scars and then Finn, very bravely I thought, showed himself totally naked. I must admit I was surprised at how good their penis looked. They explained how it functioned and could do everything a man’s penis could (apart from the sperm bit obviously) The younger transman was very impressed too and definitely wanted to think about having the procedure.

It was all done very sensitively and mention was made that Finn had had to have 6 surgeries over 3 years. But I still think there was an element of ‘glossing over’ exactly what Finn has gone through. Obviously Finn has ended up with the result they wanted, they have a loving partner, all is functioning on a physical level. They didn’t do a close up of Finn’s arm and the skin graft but it was made to sound quite straightforward.

Did anyone else watch it? My worry is that young dysphoric girls could watch that and think that it’s all a bit arduous but basically quite achievable to get a penis. I wish there had been a few more stats on how many people get this done, what the complication rate is etc… Just to balance things.

I hope we can discuss this without making it too personal to Finn - but I guess they have put themselves out there to be open to discussion. And the young transman too - I’m mindful that they’re going to get a heap of criticism too. But again, they’ve gone on national TV so must expect some debate around what they’ve done to themselves and intend to do.

I’m also aware that it is nigh on impossible to get this procedure done on the NHS in the UK. Many surgeons have stopped performing this procedure (phalloplasty) so any young person wanting it in the UK is probably going to have to go private and/or overseas)

OP posts:
Coyoacan · 19/04/2023 13:25

Many surgeons have stopped performing this procedure (phalloplasty) so any young person wanting it in the UK is probably going to have to go private and/or overseas)

Oh that is good as I understand that the failure rate is extremely high. I follow Scott Newgent on fb and she used to say that she would do it all again, even though she lost everything, her health, her home, her marriage... But now she realises it was internalised homophobia.

That is seriously fucked up for C4 to present only one side of the story about such an extremely dangerous operation.

IcakethereforeIam · 19/04/2023 13:33

I wonder about the sincerity of anyone, who had something irreversible done, claiming they wouldn't change anything/would do it all again. Lacking the ability to be privy to their thoughts how do you know if they are sincere or just doubling down and being defiant? I'm assuming the next programme will feature someone whose GRS went badly and who does regret it, for balance 🤔

Scoldsidol · 19/04/2023 13:34

Thanks Royal Corgi for the link to the James Esses article. I definitely felt conflicted watching the programme as there were very positive moments - he articulated this well. I haven’t watched any other episodes yet. And there was a typo in my OP where I wrote dysphasia instead of dysphoria.

OP posts:
EggInANest · 19/04/2023 13:34

I think the critique of last night's episode wrt the Trans participants / surgery is very valid.

But I saw a previous episode that impressed me. A young amputee talking with an older one, and men talking about their bodies including penises and not meeting stereotyped ideals. It seemed matter of fact and a good alternative to the plethora of internet stuff that young people are bombarded with. Also removed nakedness from being sexual, which I think is a good thing.

Hmm - to which end I could have done without women being comfortable with their breasts by encouraging them to take part in somewhat erotic dance routines. They need to be more rigorous with their mission.

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/04/2023 13:38

That Spectator article says what I was about to say. Yes changing your body is unnecessary except for these special people. The message is hugely inconsistent and this issues of unnecessary surgery were not locked at in any way. If the children being “educated” leave with a better self image and a wish not to change anything that will be a plus… but at a cost for those who are deluded they can be the opposite sex

Redbird87 · 19/04/2023 16:28

Phalloplasty is horrifying, and if the rod in that penis functions as intended, it's one of the very first I've heard of. It's a surgery I've researched for years as a dysphoric person, and nothing about it isn't horrifying, from nerve loss at the grafting site, to permanent urinary incontinence, to the penis being cut open like a butterfly filet for MONTHS before donor tissue is taken from the mouth.

There's a trope within the more cynical, self-aware side of the trans community that many of us know of one or two mentally unwell friends who undertook this surgery with the usual unrealistic expectations and ruined their lives over it. It's the widowmaker, it's mad science, it's the end result of a cruel lie many of us were fed when extremely ill and suffering.

AmuseBish · 19/04/2023 16:45

I'm genuinely glad when the surgery is a success and the person can live happily throughout their life - however (as with many things) it is a gamble.

I wonder whether Finn is thought of as transphobic for believing that body parts have anything to do with your gender?

redbird That's interesting. I admit I'm too squeamish to look too closely at what's involved but that glossing over can hide real risk.

Ingenieur · 19/04/2023 17:21

Liam from the programme gave an interview with Talk TV where he says how "liberated" it made him feel to appear on the show:

He seems to be doing it, in oart st least, because he enjoys being an exhibitionist.

Channel 4 Receives 1,000 Complaints After Adults Strip For Children - Star Says "I Felt Liberated"

Channel 4 show 'Naked Education' has received almost 1,000 complaints after showing adults stripping for children.Liam Halewood explains why he did it: "Goin...

https://youtu.be/nmV2EWfOFHA

duvet · 19/04/2023 18:50

Yes great points made by OP and article. Hope it's seen by many, is it worthwhile complaining to CHannel 4?

nepeta · 19/04/2023 19:03

Wouldn't it be wonderful if something like this could be done about the generic female body? We are force-fed pornified ideas about how women should look naked, and it's so reassuring to witness the enormous variety in how, say, the female breasts can look in the real world.

There was a website, a gallery, of real women's breasts (it may still exist) which I found great. It included women who had had one breast removed due to cancer, it included women of all races and ages and sizes and breast shapes.

It was so good to come across that, because it made me realise how the ideal breasts in popular media now are something which is not actually achievable: large breasts which never sag however many children you have and how old you are.

purpleme12 · 19/04/2023 19:05

Following

JacquelinePot · 19/04/2023 19:10

IcakethereforeIam · 19/04/2023 13:33

I wonder about the sincerity of anyone, who had something irreversible done, claiming they wouldn't change anything/would do it all again. Lacking the ability to be privy to their thoughts how do you know if they are sincere or just doubling down and being defiant? I'm assuming the next programme will feature someone whose GRS went badly and who does regret it, for balance 🤔

I imagine it would be very hard to comes to terms with the negative reality of this kind of drastic surgery, particularly for those (who seem to be the majority) who experience he wide variety of complications. Not only do you have to face up to having made such a dreadful mistake but in facing uo to it you risk being excommunicated from your group.*

*I've watched a lot of YouTubes by these patients and the complications can be horrific and life changing, that's who I'm thinking about here.

**you aren't allowed to speak against the trans "rites" (as exulansic calls the actions one goes through to demonstrate adherence to the pro-surgery Church of trans)

ForeverFaithless · 19/04/2023 19:16

Malcolm Clark also wrote about this, pointing out the dishonesty in Finn's story by not talking about the huge problems they had/continue to have.

https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1648455132374536193?t=rFJVB_1Eu_Ug8yqF2DHk6Q&s=19

https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1648455132374536193?s=19&t=rFJVB_1Eu_Ug8yqF2DHk6Q

Empowermenomore · 19/04/2023 22:19

I watched and have the same misgivings about how glossy it all was. There was an obvious lack of unbiased information with Finn’s operations being presented as normal and easy procedures. Finn appears to be a very nice person and again deciding on such procedures at 37 is very different than at 27.

I also thought the female genitals drawing and information was very cartoonish and lacked accuracy.

And the naked bike ride with the presenter drawing tits on her t-shirt.🙄

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/04/2023 23:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Vintagecreamandcottagepie · 19/04/2023 23:36

What a mad, stinking bloody world we live in now.

No words.

TheBiologyStupid · 20/04/2023 01:21

RoyalCorgi · 19/04/2023 13:27

James Esses has a very good piece on this, making many of the same points about Finn as you, OP:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/trans-surgery-and-the-problem-with-channel-4s-naked-education/

That's an excellent article by Esses - thanks, Corgi.

Ramblingnamechanger · 20/04/2023 09:52

my previous comment was deleted. No idea why although I did use the term for a male animal or person who has had their genitals removed. Are we not allowed to say the C word? Why not?

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 21/04/2023 12:31

I'll try to watch.

But there does seem to be a surprising emphasis on visual appearence instead of sensation or functionality (or even safety) in gender medicine. The chapter on constructed vaginas in Rachel Gross's (fascinating) "Vagina Obscure" book - based on an interview with trans surgeon Marci Bowers - is tellingly entitled "Beauty" and gives high praise to a neovagina/neovulva that looks realistic, has no visible scars and the only functional requirement is that doesn't gape open. Well that's a high bar for success, isn't it? And not in the least bit sexist.

Sasha & Stella have also picked up on in it a couple of their "Gender - a Wider Lens" podcasts especially after they interviewed two of the clinicians responsible for the original "Dutch protocol" for puberty blockade. One motive for puberty blockade is that it gives a more realistic appearence but it makes surgery much more dangerous for transwomen because there is not enough penile tissue to construct a neo-vagina and a section of gut has to be used instead. That surgical process actually killed one of the youngsters in the Dutch protocol study, giving a 1 in 70 fatality rate for puberty blockade which is higher than any realistic estimate of these young people's suicide rate without it.

So this gender medicine is very much about the looks. Not what your constructed body can do, or what you can do with it, or how safe, or how it feels.

turbonerd · 21/04/2023 13:01

Redbird87 · 19/04/2023 16:28

Phalloplasty is horrifying, and if the rod in that penis functions as intended, it's one of the very first I've heard of. It's a surgery I've researched for years as a dysphoric person, and nothing about it isn't horrifying, from nerve loss at the grafting site, to permanent urinary incontinence, to the penis being cut open like a butterfly filet for MONTHS before donor tissue is taken from the mouth.

There's a trope within the more cynical, self-aware side of the trans community that many of us know of one or two mentally unwell friends who undertook this surgery with the usual unrealistic expectations and ruined their lives over it. It's the widowmaker, it's mad science, it's the end result of a cruel lie many of us were fed when extremely ill and suffering.

I’d be very interested to hear more about this. I know a young person on the precipice of going the full hog and it does terrify me from what I’ve read. but I do not feel I can speak to them or their parents about this.

Could you talk a bit more about the experiences you have in the trans community?

Is there any pressure when it comes to hormones and/or surgery?

mrshoho · 21/04/2023 13:12

I watched and agree the phalloplasty discussion made it seem like an achievable and successful surgery when in reality it is far from it. Irresponsible of the show as I'm sure there will be a lot of impressionable confused kids looking on now with unachievable expectations.

IcakethereforeIam · 21/04/2023 14:34

Didn't a pregnant transman say that their penile rod came out when they went into labour?

DiscoBeat · 21/04/2023 14:42

Finn seemed very happy with the results, I'm happy for him. But I think 27 is still too young really.

Redbird87 · 21/04/2023 21:07

turbonerd · 21/04/2023 13:01

I’d be very interested to hear more about this. I know a young person on the precipice of going the full hog and it does terrify me from what I’ve read. but I do not feel I can speak to them or their parents about this.

Could you talk a bit more about the experiences you have in the trans community?

Is there any pressure when it comes to hormones and/or surgery?

I'm more than happy to share what I know. The twig 'n berries surgery is a nightmare, with even worse outcomes than the mtf ones if we're talking statistics. The biggest goal many of them had was just to hold their penis and stand to pee, as funny as that sounds, but instead there are countless fistula that block the urinary tract and make catheters necessary (and countless