Woman’s Hour today

[Ramblingnamechanger]

Important discussion about the horrific experiences of black women using maternity services. However Caroline Nokes was heavily invested in her party not taking responsibility for levels of poverty, deprivation, and racism. The woman constantly talking about “birthing people” was not challenged on the use of that expression. It is clearly black women who were being talked about.

I haven’t heard it but FFS, “birthing people”. So offensive.

Vile - reminds me of this hideous tweet:

https://twitter.com/wraglobal/status/1312379642020495362

It seems it's everywhere:

https://twitter.com/353MediaGroup/status/1646547423429312515

Yes anti women language not challenged at all! I switched over to Times radio which was also talking nonsense so I listened to a history podcast instead.

Well, you have to say 'birthing people' now. Also 'menstruating people' and 'people undergoing menopause'. And 'chest feeders' and 'vulva people.'

That's because we are now inclusive of all who wish to define womanhood as having to do with loving pink and makeup and high heels so that they can run into it our out of it.

There's surely not people honestly still using 'birthing people'?!

If you won't name the problem how can you fix it?

Reports | MBRRACE-UK | NPEU (ox.ac.uk) 2022 MBRRACE report link here, the layperson's summary is a good explainer.

I know recent research has been published, which I think has kickstarted the conversation around health inequalities again.

But the conversation peters out quickly and each year we wring our hands at the news that 4 times as many Black women and 2 times as many Asian women die in pregnancy compared to white women in the UK, and congratulate ourselves that as it was previously 5 times for Black women, whoo hoo, and is now only 4, yeah, that's got be worth some hi fives. /sarcasm

https://twitter.com/353MediaGroup/status/1646547423429312515

"We must listen to black birthing bodies" How dehumanising can you get? I remember a US university (Harvard, I think) using that exact language and they got extremely angry feedback. Nothing seems to have been learned from that.

Did the programme come to a conclusion about how to fix this? Concrete policies proposed?

I heard this. It brought me up short. I thought it was a supremely offensive and counterproductive way of referring to women in the context of rights to good maternity care.

'Birthing bodies'!?!

'Birthing people' is bad enough; 'bodies' is what you'd expect them to come up with if they were deliberately trying to be offensive.

Is 'vulva people' a real one? FFS! What is happening? They're all terrible but especially that one.

https://medium.com/@cuppajoey/vulva-people-and-defining-people-by-their-genitalia-aadf66a522b8

White slave owners on US plantations deliberately used dehumanising language about their slaves, as they considered them livestock. I find it really concerning that people can't see the parallels here.

Exactly. Racism 2,0 like Sexism 2.0 is the same stuff dressed up.

However this conversation is questionable in certain ways. Look at the stats in more detail. British African women have higher morality rates than British Caribbean women. Which is weird if it is just about skin colour.

This BIGGEST cause of maternal mortality is poverty it seems. If we got more money for all poor women of whatever ethnicity things would get better. The reason black women having bad outcomes is they are more likely to be poor.

It is weird the conversation has got sidetracked onto race when the real issue is

1 - our society doesn't like mothers

2 - doesn't support poor mothers enough.

This I think is because feeling guilty about race is way more acceptable than the deeper reality of NHS failings and poverty.

Take a look at the full reports. Do not get distracted by the media hype.

https://www.npeu.ox.ac.uk/mbrrace-uk/reports

So this is a good example of why language is important.
I'm hypothesising, and not very well, but say all the black women who were treated badly during pregnancy and birth were trans women - it would be important to know that, because that might contribute to the poor experience. It might be due to the drugs they take, or any surgery they've had, for instance.
I'm pretty sure that isn't the reason in this case (before everyone piles in to tell me! 😁), but in another case of discrimination it might be.

How has women morphed into birthing people morphed into birthing bodies? How can we listen to a body? Is it a dead body, or alive? Is it actually perhaps a woman? Just awful, this makes me sick. Let's listen to women giving birth.

End racial disparities in maternal deaths - MPs - BBC News Recent BBC article. I agree that poverty is involved but we must not brush aside the uncomfortable truth that racism is present, too.

But we can still say men, right?

The end point of Liberalism/Liberal feminism is sex denial and disembodiment -especially when it comes to women.

When you suggest someone's humanity has nothing to do with the body that is when the market steps in and starts to commodify that body - as if it just a " meat suit" ( Mary Harrington). Self commodification.

Yes dehumanising

Completely agree. It’s shocking to read “black birthing bodies”.

I'm hypothesising, and not very well, but say all the black women who were treated badly during pregnancy and birth were trans women - it would be important to know that

By trans women, do you mean 'women who have transitioned'? Because precisely zero transwomen have ever become pregnant or given birth.

When I go into hospital, not for maternity of course, many of the nurses are black, and when they give me their names, it seems likely they are African. Is it different in maternity than opthalmology? Seems odd.

By trans women, do you mean 'women who have transitioned'? Because precisely zero transwomen have ever become pregnant or given birth.

I meant trans men, obviously.