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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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25
IcakethereforeIam · 18/01/2024 10:17

Seems a pisspoor way of carrying out a survey. Unless they're trying to skew the results by prioritising the tech savvy.

TempestTost · 18/01/2024 10:26

ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 08:48

Why not? Why can't women have a group just for women?

I remember the arguments about golf clubs and men's sheds, and I argued the same back then - there is nothing wrong with having single sex spaces, it's unfair to force people to accept those of the opposite sex.

Most groups are mixed sex and that's fine. Sometimes people just want to be with members of their own sex. This has been a thing since forever, it's always been important to have some same-sex groups.

Personally I agree, but I think this is something where you will see real division. There are a lot of women who don't see the need for groups like this for things like hobbies, and think they are weird, and also dangerous in setting a precedent for segregation rather than inclusion.

And it can be more fraught. Over the years I've been a member of different single sex social associations, though all but one just happened to be single sex, rather than having it mandated. Similar to the WI in that they were centered around hobbies associated more with women. If a man had happened to want to join and do some knitting, it would have changed the dynamic, but then it would have if a woman from a different culture or background had too, given these were all small country places. I don't know that I could have justified excluding someone from the only needlework group in the village because he was a man and preferred that hobby to talking about wood splitters with the men's hobby groups. I similarly remember when I was a kid and many girls were fighting to gain access to boys hockey teams, because their weren't any for girls, their argument was that a) there was no inherent reason for kid's hockey to be sex specific, and b) lack of access. They won that argument too.

TempestTost · 18/01/2024 10:40

I guess I should add - my point here is that while dickhead men and foolish women are behind this most immediatly, I think there is also a question of how we have in the past dealt with the question of sex exclusive organizations, and the soaicl change towards seeing them as illegitimate. This was used to attack men's organizations - and that has includedsocial orgs, not just ones where "power" was a factor, but there was less thought that it might come to affect organizations for women.

And the legal questions don't give us much direction for thinking about when it's best to have a single sex vs open group.

There's a bit of a gap that's been left and maybe we need something to fill it. It reminds me a bit of the questions that arise around things like workplace relationships, or how men and women interact in workplace/social events. What are the rules? There isn't an agreed upon set of practices yet in society.

DadJoke · 18/01/2024 11:04

The WI has been officially trans-inclusive since 2015. In order to exclude trans women, which they are under no obligation to do, they would need to demonstrate it was legitimate and proportion to exclude trans women. This does not depend on a GRC.

It makes no differences to campaigns supporting issues which affect most women - these campaigns have continued.

Viviennemary · 18/01/2024 11:36

I think trans women should be allowed to join the WI if they want to. It's not the same as sports and changing rooms. That's my opinion. Frankly I can't see the harm. But on the other hand if some members feel uncomfortable then their voices should be heard.

LWSnow · 18/01/2024 11:44

I’ve joined the WI I’m disappointed to find that they allow men to join

LWSnow · 18/01/2024 11:44

I’ve signed the petition

IcakethereforeIam · 18/01/2024 11:56

If they allow tw to join they should let any man join.

Does anyone know if they let tm or nb join?

LWSnow · 18/01/2024 11:58

The WI should be all over this TWAW shit but they have effectively been silenced by an interloper at the top.
they campaign about violence against women and girls. But can’t say what a woman is
silencing one of the biggest groups of women in the country has been an amazing achievement for the trans lobby

DadJoke · 18/01/2024 12:09

LWSnow · 18/01/2024 11:58

The WI should be all over this TWAW shit but they have effectively been silenced by an interloper at the top.
they campaign about violence against women and girls. But can’t say what a woman is
silencing one of the biggest groups of women in the country has been an amazing achievement for the trans lobby

Edited

They been trans inclusive since the 1970s. They aren't the interlopers here.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/01/2024 12:13

I’m sure you can evidence a link from the 1970s to show WI was accepting men babk then DadJoke

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/01/2024 12:13

Men in women’s spaces are ALWAYS interlopers

LWSnow · 18/01/2024 12:14

They’re still interlopers however long they’ve been there

LWSnow · 18/01/2024 12:14

Why can’t they start up their own trans group

Hepwo · 18/01/2024 12:15

It's bizarre isn't it? Men pushing their way in and pushing and keeping women out of public life has slowly become unacceptable over the last 100 years or so but there's a resistant cohort like DadJoke that insists on carrying it on.

DerekFaker · 18/01/2024 12:18

LWSnow · 18/01/2024 12:14

Why can’t they start up their own trans group

Because it's all about validation.

WickedSerious · 18/01/2024 12:24

LWSnow · 18/01/2024 12:14

Why can’t they start up their own trans group

Oh dear no.

Where's the fun in that?

WickedSerious · 18/01/2024 12:25

Why not rename it 'The People's Institute' and let any old Tom,Dick and Harriet sign up?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/01/2024 12:42

LWSnow · 18/01/2024 12:14

Why can’t they start up their own trans group

Cos as the fabulous Datun always says, it’s not the spaces or the groups. It’s the women in the spaces or the groups. Without the women, there’s no validation for TW that they’re ‘women’

LWSnow · 18/01/2024 12:45

Is the Daily Mail all over this? I don’t think many WI members are aware of the issue. And the WI magazine is strangely silent on the matter.

LWSnow · 18/01/2024 12:46

It needs to go in the places where the average WI member reads. Unfortunately in my group is probably the guardian

BoredOfThisMansWorld · 18/01/2024 12:48

Women are always the interlocutors into the public sphere, according to some men.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 18/01/2024 13:19

WickedSerious · 18/01/2024 12:25

Why not rename it 'The People's Institute' and let any old Tom,Dick and Harriet sign up?

This.

If WI can't justify SSE, they have to include all men regardless of the PC of GR.

If they include men, why do they call themselves the womens institute? Isn't that false advertising?

WickedSerious · 18/01/2024 13:28

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 18/01/2024 13:19

This.

If WI can't justify SSE, they have to include all men regardless of the PC of GR.

If they include men, why do they call themselves the womens institute? Isn't that false advertising?

Edited

Yes and it would be so interesting to see who wanted to join in those circumstances.

sanluca · 18/01/2024 13:35

DadJoke · 18/01/2024 11:04

The WI has been officially trans-inclusive since 2015. In order to exclude trans women, which they are under no obligation to do, they would need to demonstrate it was legitimate and proportion to exclude trans women. This does not depend on a GRC.

It makes no differences to campaigns supporting issues which affect most women - these campaigns have continued.

If WI decide, because that is what their members want, to exclude all male people based on their sex, are you really suggesting a transwoman would sue them for this? What would they hope to achieve? Membership of an institute women would then leave?

I never get this. Lots of organisations are organised around protected characteristics and I wouldn't dream of demanding access. Think mens mental health clubs. Or LGB clubs.
And why do transwomen always then center it around themselves and their protected characteristic of being trans?

I know the answer: it is a feature of gender ideology but sometimes the sheer narcissism leaves me breathless, and how much transwomen, and some men like Dad, absolutely hate the very concept of women