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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why do anti trans people support JK Rowling?

97 replies

TaylorMia · 17/04/2023 08:23

I'm a gay detransitioner who stopped taking hormones simply because I ended up not liking the idea of being on hormones and getting surgery. My insecurities aren't gone, but there's been some freedom in not being nervous about the increase of cardiovascular issues from hormones. I was also aware of Rowling's comments and never thought of her as being against trans people.

Over the past few weeks though, I paid attention to a lot of the people following her on Twitter who support her most, and I noticed that a large amount of them don't agree with a single thing Rowling has said about trans people. Rowling is on record for saying that she has no problem calling trans men he/trans women she, supporting adults having fairly easy access to hormones/surgery, saying that she considers most trans people 'vulnerable' and even saying she knew a trans woman that she could barely see as anything other than a woman. In contrast, a lot of 'gender critical' people say the opposite of those things. They get triggered by the idea of calling a trans woman a she and vice versa, sometimes don't even use their legal names, mock their appearances, think that trans people don't have their own specific needs, and in some cases, saying that the mere concept of being transgender is a capitalistic 'white male' misogynistic scam that manipulates mentally ill people, and that even adults shouldn't be allowed to transition. You can deny it if you want, but I can safely say I have seen all of these things said in 'gender critical' Twitter and forums. The word disingenuous doesn't really cover the attitudes of people who say that the whole concept of being trans is bad, bigoted and a capitalist scam, while simultaneously saying "We aren't anti trans". I am fully against gender ideology, but seeing these people's sentiments made me realize they don't really agree with what Rowling has said.

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 17/04/2023 09:07

'In contrast, a lot of 'gender critical' people say the opposite of those things. They get triggered by the idea of calling a trans woman a she and vice versa, sometimes don't even use their legal names, mock their appearances, think that trans people don't have their own specific needs, and in some cases, saying that the mere concept of being transgender is a capitalistic 'white male' misogynistic scam that manipulates mentally ill people, and that even adults shouldn't be allowed to transition.'

'triggered' is an odd word. Do you mean that some people get angry at the idea they are compelled to call a male 'she'?

I agree that mocking appearances is not nice.

As for the last part, criticising an ideology that is causing great, real harm to children and women is not the same as criticising those people. It's similar to criticising theology, or a political ideology. That doesn't need to collapse into criticising followers of said ideologies, though I agree that it often does, because humans can get tribal very quickly.

Needanewnamebeingwatched · 17/04/2023 09:09

TaylorMia · 17/04/2023 08:23

I'm a gay detransitioner who stopped taking hormones simply because I ended up not liking the idea of being on hormones and getting surgery. My insecurities aren't gone, but there's been some freedom in not being nervous about the increase of cardiovascular issues from hormones. I was also aware of Rowling's comments and never thought of her as being against trans people.

Over the past few weeks though, I paid attention to a lot of the people following her on Twitter who support her most, and I noticed that a large amount of them don't agree with a single thing Rowling has said about trans people. Rowling is on record for saying that she has no problem calling trans men he/trans women she, supporting adults having fairly easy access to hormones/surgery, saying that she considers most trans people 'vulnerable' and even saying she knew a trans woman that she could barely see as anything other than a woman. In contrast, a lot of 'gender critical' people say the opposite of those things. They get triggered by the idea of calling a trans woman a she and vice versa, sometimes don't even use their legal names, mock their appearances, think that trans people don't have their own specific needs, and in some cases, saying that the mere concept of being transgender is a capitalistic 'white male' misogynistic scam that manipulates mentally ill people, and that even adults shouldn't be allowed to transition. You can deny it if you want, but I can safely say I have seen all of these things said in 'gender critical' Twitter and forums. The word disingenuous doesn't really cover the attitudes of people who say that the whole concept of being trans is bad, bigoted and a capitalist scam, while simultaneously saying "We aren't anti trans". I am fully against gender ideology, but seeing these people's sentiments made me realize they don't really agree with what Rowling has said.

Do you mean people who support women's rights, rather than Anti Trans?

Like Trans rights activists are Anti Women activists

BonfireLady · 17/04/2023 09:17

BonfireLady · 17/04/2023 08:59

Some food for thought OP.

I really like this kind of challenging question. It's the kind of debate - proper debate - that I would love to see playing out more openly. With grown ups in the room, listening to and talking to each other.

I have listened to several detransitioners' stories. I appreciate each belongs to an individual who has their own experiences but, as a general theme, none of it sounds easy. I hope you are able to speak to people in your life who can support you without judgement.

I forgot to add...

My personal view is that I will use the pronouns that are requested by whoever requests them during my every day interactions with people. I accommodate it the same way as I would for any religious beliefs that anyone has. For example, I work for an international company that is based in the UK. Many of my colleagues are in a Muslim country where Fridays would normally be a weekend day (Sundays are normally work days). Because of this, I will try to avoid Friday meetings during the prayer time in the middle of the day. I don't always get it right and I sometimes forget. If I do, I'll apologise and try and remember next time. Same with someone's preferred pronouns.

The exception that I make is where it specifically needs to be called out that a trans woman is male or vice versa. For example, pointing out the biological sex of Dylan Mulvaney in relation to how bonkers it is for this person to be advertising Tampax. In this case I would use the pronouns that relate to Dylan's biological sex, otherwise my point gets somewhat lost to say the least. I'm only avoiding saying these pronouns here so that my post doesn't get deleted.

Equally, I won't put my pronouns in my bio. I have significant concerns that doing so signposts vulnerable people towards unhealthy thought processes. Why would anyone advertise the idea that we should be consciously deciding what our pronouns are? It's a foot in the door to the confusing world of gender identity ideology.

ArabeIIaScott · 17/04/2023 09:29

OP's not coming back, are they?

What a damn waste of everyone's time.

AmuseBish · 17/04/2023 09:38

They get triggered by the idea of calling a trans woman a she

Do you mean a trauma is triggered - in which case I would have thought 'be kind to people suffering trauma'? Otherwise I don't understand what this means?

Since I've been on this board - several years - I have said that I completely accept that some people want to be the opposite sex, and will try to emulate this, and often live a happier life because of it. I don't think this is inherently wrong although it clearly throws up a lot of issues about in which cases a person should or shouldn't be treated as literally the opposite sex.

What I do object to is 'TW are literally W' and the insistence that - rather than being people with gender dysphoria who want to be the opposite sex - there is a requirement for everyone to have a gender identity that is somehow a substitute for one's physical sex, although being completely separate. The dishonesty around this is terrible. Do you believe sex and gender are the same, or different, OP?

You can deny it if you want, but I can safely say I have seen all of these things said in 'gender critical' Twitter and forums. The word disingenuous doesn't really cover the attitudes of people who say that the whole concept of being trans is bad, bigoted and a capitalist scam, while simultaneously saying "We aren't anti trans". I am fully against gender ideology, but seeing these people's sentiments made me realize they don't really agree with what Rowling has said.

this is really muddled - of course I'm going to deny that I believe this, because I don't. It's really odd to come to a forum and complain about a specific view that I can't see anyone has actually stated.

It's actually good debate and forum etiquette to reply directly to a statement if you want to critique it, rather than reword it and post it somewhere different. Otherwise it does look a bit... disingenuous.

Codlingmoths · 17/04/2023 09:40

I’m happy to say he and she for adults who are living as the other sex BUT not for male sexual predators- you want to sexually assault a woman with your penis and superior male strength, you lose the right to be called she. And not to utter tossers like Dylan Mulvaney prancing through the forest on tippy toes cos he’s a girl now, and also the cass report makes it clear that social transition is not neutral so I’m a bit uncomfortable about calling teens their preferred pronouns in case I’m contributing to giving them life long health issues, osteoporosis, increased stroke and heart attack risk etc. I often would, but I have reservations about whether it’s best for them.
So I guess it’s about distinguishing between treating most people with respect like normal people do, and at what point should you politely respect every bit of harmful anti women fuckery some of these people spout. I mean, do you think women should stay polite to a man harassing them no matter what? That’s the question being asked here. If you ever come back.

FrippEnos · 17/04/2023 09:47

@TaylorMia

Are you aware that much of the animosity surrounding this topic wouldn't have happened if the trans lobby had not pushed their mantra of 'No debate'?

Horizons83 · 17/04/2023 09:56

The OP is saying totally different things about JKR on another thread.. saying that JKR gets triggered by pronouns..

BonfireLady · 17/04/2023 09:56

Great point about teens being an exception too @Codlingmoths Absolutely. It's only something I would do for an adult. I would be doing it reluctantly for any adult between 18 and 25, owing to their stage of brain development and the vulnerability associated with this (and "not a neutral act" etc) but I would still do it. However, younger than 18 - absolutely not.

I have faith that the OP will be back. It really is a great question and there has already been some interesting debate.
It's very personal as to how long you stay away for before rejoining the conversation. Personally I'm right back in there as I love the back and forth but that's not everyone's approach.

Transparent2 · 17/04/2023 10:10

TaylorMia · 17/04/2023 08:23

I'm a gay detransitioner who stopped taking hormones simply because I ended up not liking the idea of being on hormones and getting surgery. My insecurities aren't gone, but there's been some freedom in not being nervous about the increase of cardiovascular issues from hormones. I was also aware of Rowling's comments and never thought of her as being against trans people.

Over the past few weeks though, I paid attention to a lot of the people following her on Twitter who support her most, and I noticed that a large amount of them don't agree with a single thing Rowling has said about trans people. Rowling is on record for saying that she has no problem calling trans men he/trans women she, supporting adults having fairly easy access to hormones/surgery, saying that she considers most trans people 'vulnerable' and even saying she knew a trans woman that she could barely see as anything other than a woman. In contrast, a lot of 'gender critical' people say the opposite of those things. They get triggered by the idea of calling a trans woman a she and vice versa, sometimes don't even use their legal names, mock their appearances, think that trans people don't have their own specific needs, and in some cases, saying that the mere concept of being transgender is a capitalistic 'white male' misogynistic scam that manipulates mentally ill people, and that even adults shouldn't be allowed to transition. You can deny it if you want, but I can safely say I have seen all of these things said in 'gender critical' Twitter and forums. The word disingenuous doesn't really cover the attitudes of people who say that the whole concept of being trans is bad, bigoted and a capitalist scam, while simultaneously saying "We aren't anti trans". I am fully against gender ideology, but seeing these people's sentiments made me realize they don't really agree with what Rowling has said.

I get ‘triggered’ when people require me to refer to my son as ‘she’. It’s different with people I’m not so close to. This is why ‘no debate’ is very unhelpful - it takes no account of the subtleties of human thought. Isn’t it interesting how easy it is to pick holes in the views and attitudes of people we have some disagreement with, but harder to admit to any inconsistency in our own positions?

PrinnyPaupersPurse · 17/04/2023 10:22

I'm gender critical and I simply believe that the concept of gender ( girls like pink, boots like blue. Girls play dolls and wear dresses and boots play cars and wear shorts) is inherently damaging. I think this because if we simply raised all children to wear every colour and sagged of clothing, in a mix of styles across the board, and enabled to them to play with any toys at all, and encouraged to study ANY subjects they wanted to..... well I think they would be hard pushed to say " I think in a girl cos XXXXX". I've never met or discussed this with a single trans person that hasn't fallen back on the typical stereos of gender to describe their feelings. A boy isn't a girl cos he likes pink and skirts. Girls, actual teenagers don't even "feel" female, we just ARE. We exist in our natural state.

I don't care what fully developed healthy adults do to their bodies. If you are 25 and want a penile inversion then you crack on and pay for your privately funded surgery. Same with hormones. But children? Absolutely not. They are not mature enough to make this decision and they are being used to validate adults that have already done this as adults. I know this as my teen son was groomed into believing he was trans on the internet and ended up with a horrific hentaii porn addiction and a criminal record at 19 yo.

I absolutely do not hate trans people though. If anything I'm more likely to go use their checkouts in the supermarket, stand up for them in the streets if I see them being bullied. I think it takes courage to dress however you want, especially as we live in a society that is so stereotyped. I'd happily work next to trans people and fight for their rights to better health care and third spaces but I don't think they have changed sex and that's that. But I if I saw somebody being victimised I'd step in regardless. Id treat them with respect.

Signalbox · 17/04/2023 10:29

VoodooQualities · 17/04/2023 08:31

They probably come at it from a 'free speech' point of view. People who hate certain groups usually like to claim freedom of speech.

Also I think you have a skewed view of what 'gender critical' means.

Anti-women activists don’t seem to be that keen on free speech. Their main goal seems to be to shut down the speech of those they hate.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 17/04/2023 10:29

JK’s 2020 essay articulated where I was around the beginning of 2018.

I reckon JK is now where I was circa 2020.

My views have become less forgiving as the ideology has crept into my own home (via a school counsellor) and destroyed what was left of my middle child’s mental health.

I hope you find peace with yourself, OP.

titchy · 17/04/2023 10:33

This is Mumsnet, not the Anti-Trans Comms and PR Department.

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2023 10:35

At the heart of this remains the problem that pro-women is conflated with anti-trans.

JKR is smeared as anti-trans. Never framed as pro-woman.

Why?

Because being pro-woman is still in, with the human rights cheerleaders. If you frame JKR as pro-woman and you are opposed to her, you become anti-woman by definition.

and in some cases, saying that the mere concept of being transgender is a capitalistic 'white male' misogynistic scam that manipulates mentally ill people, and that even adults shouldn't be allowed to transition. You can deny it if you want, but I can safely say I have seen all of these things said in 'gender critical' Twitter and forums.

We then need to unpick this.

What does transitioning mean? What does the public understand as transitioning?

First of all we have a bunch of euphemisms, 'Sex change' or 'change sex' being the most contentious. Coupled with how the word sex is being used interchangeably with gender in problematic contexts which have real world implications.

With the best will in the world, no one can change sex. By definition someone who is trans, is 'trans' precisely because their identity doesn't match their sex. Their sex has stayed the same, how they define themselves has changed. You can only change legal paperwork not sex.

And that's where everything falls down. Definitions without agreement. Trust and communication failures.

Being pro-woman is about preserving this biological definition because the conflation of sex and gender is causing a conflict and many will argue is rolling back on rights and the safety of women.

Gender itself is contentious precisely because it doesn't have a fixed definition - it's based on gender stereotypes which aren't always in women's interests.

The public perception of transition has largely understood it to involve surgery and efforts to 'pass' and it only to be a tiny number of adults. With self ID and a much larger cohort including people who don't even attempt to pass, you have an issue and a mismatch with older now outdated public perceptions.

As we've had a massive push on lobbying we've also seen a massive wave of children identifing as trans which is massively problematic for many reasons. Given the correlations with age, sex, mental health issues, homosexuality, abuse, eating disorders, autism in this group which are backed with sources from lobbying groups themselves which match the findings of the Class Review it becomes hard to argue that these groups a) aren't vulnerable in terms of this lobbying / politically biased education which is age inappropriate b) there's a massive problem with distinguishing 'true trans' from 'fashion trend' c) you have real evidence of harms to various vulnerable groups.

At which point you do need to roll back to medical ethics, research and safeguarding. All three of which are failing to match even the most basic standards expected elsewhere.

In normal circumstances the reaction to this would be to stop all medicalisations pending an investigation, review etc to prevent further harm. So I actually don't see why this is a controversial position to have. It's actually more controversial to continue to push for medicalisation in the absence of decent studies / follow ups and to persist with views which don't seem to have substance beyond matching gender stereotypes of what a man or woman is.

The fact we can't get politicians to define a woman and we don't even have discussions over the definition of man is incredibly one sided and steeped in social bias - that screams problem.

The basic problem comes down to biological issues being ignored, in favour of a concept that doesn't have social consensus, adequate legal or even political definition and medical standards which are sub basic levels and significant evidence of actual harm.

The question from a pro woman point of view should be 'why on earth have we got to a position where this was ever allowed to happen without thought, oversight or consensus which has damaged women's rights and removed protections we thought were agreed in law and by social, moral, ethical and political consensus.'

Or to put into an example which is easy for people to see visually: What is the point/purpose of women's sport? Why was it established in the first place? What is 'fairness' based upon?

If you start from this position rather than the one that's framed as a roll back on trans rights and therefore 'anti-trans', the whole debate looks a lot different.

It looks anti-woman. It looks fundamentally racist, never taking cultural issues into account, it's looking top down driven by lobbying and marketing campaigns rather than from grassroots level, there's huge amounts of money at stake for branding and pharmaceutical companies, there's many who have reputational damage to consider if there is a potential scandal, there a huge political investment in this so if there is a house of cards there's a massive problem.

And that's really the issue. If we start to unpick things we have a huge number of powerful and influential people who have a lot to lose if a scandal of neglect and safeguarding, lack of transparency, destruction of women's rights and protections is there. The sunk costs problem that's hard to step back from, which is leading to ever greater - and absurd doubling down - which alienates and becomes harder and harder to justify in a logical sane way.

Worse still, any evidence of problems is therefore subject to a desire to suppress and this looks dodgy as fuck in the context of much of the movement endorsing a 'no debate' position over one that favours accountability.

In essence the issue has become a lack of trust in people and institutions who have supported a push on trans rights without consideration to women and other groups and the implications for safeguarding.

People saying there should be a complete ban are coming from a place where they think there has been a failure of accountability and proper basic responsibilities neglected. That's not necessarily unreasonable nor discriminatory.

The worst bit is that a lot of this tra drive has ended up undermining trans rights - certainly in terms of health care. It's almost become the situation that if you are trans, you can't have certain mental health support because that could be considered anti-trans. And de-transitioners aren't being helped and supported. They are neglected, ostracised and actively demonised' by their former community as 'traitors'. Again that's problematic for a movement built on the idea that its members are the most vulnerable. Shunning people who it accepted as vulnerable and then trying to block alternative support for them, by definition creates an even more vulnerable group being bullied and suppressed by another.

The trans movements confrontational tactics rather than consensus building, it's authoritarian 'education' programmes rather than using reliable and robust evidence based arguments and it's use of high profile, powerful groups to put down grass roots questioning are its downfall.

Again I stress: It comes down to loss of trust.

To regain credibility it has to go back to consensus building, evidence building and grass roots level engagement. It's unwillingness to do this will be it's undoing. Why?

Because it comes back to that starting point about the framing of pro-woman v anti-trans.

In neglecting women's stake, the movement has a problem as issues and evidence becomes problematic to the public and questions are raised about the duty of care aspects from public servants.

Are calls to stop things anti-trans? Or are they pro-transparency, pro-accountability and pro-evidence / ethical practice? Are they about wanting to rebuild trust and restore consensus building and proper democratic consultation and involvement of all stake holders?

'It shouldn't be allowed' can not be framed as anti-trans in the context of what has happened for this reason.

The TRAs downfall is it's desire to bulldoze through society without involving and engaging with it at a level which considers all aspect of citizenship and stakeholding. It's failing to live up to societial expectations of protections which are well ingrained as basic rights.

It is an inability to communicate with those who aren't the same. It's about a lack of trust.

If you want to change this, the idea that womens groups or any other stakeholder, is by default 'anti-trans' needs to stop. It's not. It's over simplistic brain dead thinking which will only lead to further resistance. THATs what really needs to stop.

boopee · 17/04/2023 10:47

Because there is no room for nuance in the culture war of which JKR has become part.

Most people only see that the other side hate or love her, so they do the opposite unquestioningly and most likely without any clue about what she actually said/believes. That's the way things are these days.

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2023 11:06

boopee · 17/04/2023 10:47

Because there is no room for nuance in the culture war of which JKR has become part.

Most people only see that the other side hate or love her, so they do the opposite unquestioningly and most likely without any clue about what she actually said/believes. That's the way things are these days.

I don't think that's true.

I think the problem is ultimately a breakdown in trust and an aggressive strategy employed by TRAs that's alienated because it hasn't been founded in evidence and reason.

If it's a belief - which I think is the ultimate problem - then that can never happen. It is merely another religion. And we know how beliefs that can not be reconciled will always produce conflict in the absence of willingness to engage and a lack of trust.

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2023 11:22

If it's not a belief, we can:

Produce water tight definitions in politics and in law.

Have more of an effect that our sex in terms of life experience in order to have the credibility to replace sex as a classification.

Be able to hold the respect of the public at large through census of belief - no law is enforceable in practice if too many people oppose it. (See poll tax)

We can determine between 'true trans' and chancers.

Provide robust evidence that transition is beneficial AND that rates of detransition are limited AND detransition doesn't produce harm.

Show evidence that males in women's sport does not harm women in any way.

Be confident that there is no social contagion going on.

Be able to produce accurate data on and adequately explain high correlations between certain groups - be it sex offenders or autism - AND have answers to any problems that might arise from any results.

Be able to demonstrate that word salading health messages has no detrimental effect on groups with poor literacy, educational or learning difficulties.

Etc etc

We have a problem in the inability of the TRA movement to live up to any of these at this stage because we are at the level of 'i am a woman because I say I am a woman'.

That's simply not good enough on a society level, because it doesn't go beyond the level of being anything more than a belief.

Tallisker · 17/04/2023 11:27

Red 👏

TheBiologyStupid · 17/04/2023 11:30

At the heart of this remains the problem that pro-women is conflated with anti-trans.

JKR is smeared as anti-trans. Never framed as pro-woman.

[...]

Too long to quote, but that's an excellent post Red!

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2023 11:30

In this sense it being framed as purely 'a culture war' issue is bollocks.

It's actually an issue about how you impose a belief on society on a practical level without causing harms and without sufficient public support.

TheBiologyStupid · 17/04/2023 11:33

If only there was a GIF of a toothbrush on fire! Excellent contributions!

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2023 11:39

At this moment in time the trans v women's debate can be summed up as a conflict between observable objective reality and subjective belief.

Unless TRAs can come up with better evidence and observability then it's going to ultimately end up losing the argument in time.

That might mean a period of dominance over women but it won't be strong enough to convince people beyond the facade of fear.

potniatheron · 17/04/2023 11:48

Because it's not about trans people. I'm not interested in them (although I feel sorry for anyone with mental illness, I do not believe that mental delusions should be enshrined in law, which should only legislate on the empiral and observable).

I'm interested in women's rights, women's sports, women's spaces and women's health provision. And the threat these hard won things are coming under by entitled men. I'm glad that JKR is such a vocal support of women's rights. She has been the key mover in women waking up to this issue over the past 2 years.

Shelefttheweb · 17/04/2023 11:55

I am pro-women so couldn’t speak for anti-trans people.

I support JKR right to speak out. I agree with much/most of what she says but if she thinks oysters are worth eating them I would definitely have to disagree.

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