Am I gender non-conforming?

[literalviolence]

Gender non-conforming is bandied around as if it's a meaningful statement. But what does it actually mean? I am not trans. I believe in biology. I don't think there is any value in trying to divide society according to an increasing number of gender identities. I don't believe that many people actually have a gender identity. I do get very angry when people term themselves gender non-conforming as if everyone else is gender conforming. But I thought it might help to ask people who say such things to explain what gender conforming actually means and to tell me how many non-conforming characteristics someone needs before they are non-conforming.

Gender non-conforming to me means that you don't believe in harmful and outdated stereotypes. It's that bloody simple.

Does that not mean practically everyone is gender non conforming and therefore makes the expression meaningless?

Yes me too so I guess I know of one person who is gender conforming. I think it must mean something else to others though otherwise why label yourself as gender non-conforming? It seems like a waste of space to tell people that you're one of the masses.

Well, the flip side of the coin are the people that believe that to wear red lipstick, heels and a short skirt with fake bosoms makes them a bona fide female....

DD is very into gender ideology and proudly is non-binary, to her it means cutting your hair very short, not removing body hair, dressing in a masculine way so pink and 'girly' colours would not be allowed in her wardrobe etc her fashion is generally charity shop chic 50s geography teacher or average teen in jeans and hoody she would not be seen dead in leggings and crop top of other girls her age. Basically a Tom Boy to anyone over the age of 24. Interestingly whilst she rejects most feminine things she does like make up.

Well I would saying not believing that how well someone fits into gender stereotypes is actually terribly important, and that probably no-one perfectly fits all the stereotypes all the time is GC.

GNC I think changes from place to place and time to time (just as the expectations change).

My dad got grief from his dad in the 60s because his long hair made him 'look like a girl' but actually with the beatles and hippies it wasn't so much that he was GNC as the range of acceptable hair lengths and styles which were acceptable for men was widening.

Nevertheless, a guy in 10 inch heels could be said to be GNC. (at least whilst he's wearing them. A guy in 17th century Scotland wearing a kilt is totally normal Beckham wearing a sarong made the front page of the paper in god whatever 1995?

It doesn't and shouldn't be applauded as a super special status but especially for girls growing up in can be healthy to learn that it's ok to say 'fuck it' if a particular expectation just isn't you (e.g. make up every day, hair done to a particular standard etc.)

In certain communities 'I hate guns and don't want to go hunting' might be enough to make people look at a boy askance.

@Singleandproud v. relatable,

I was thinking about this just this morning walking about the shops. About one in 30 women, probably less, wore a dress. They were all in trousers and tops. Lots without makeup. Were they all gender non conforming?

I barely ever wear a dress or skirt and am usually in jeans or leggings and trainers. Dh cooks and I cut the grass so we must both be GNC!

OP Does it matter?

Just do you? Why is everyone so eager to label and put themselves and others in little boxes?

Gender nonconforming means a person who does not conform to the socially proscribed gender stereotypes, roles and preferences that align with their sex.

So a man being a SAHD is gender nonconforming. A woman who doesn’t wear any make up is gender nonconforming.

Usually though, people call themselves gender nonconforming when the majority of their life, appearances, preferences and such are gender nonconforming.

It's all about stereotypes and societal expectations.

I think it is rare for a girl or woman to look gender non-conforming, except in very specific contexts. (A tuxedo at your own wedding, for example. Even on a female wedding guest, it would be nothing more than a slightly unusual fashion choice.) Simply because women wearing male clothes - often in a very male style - is so common. Lack of makeup, short hair, combat trousers, trainers ... none of that looks male. It is a very well-trod path of womenswear.

Not shaving your legs/armpits/bikini line... that's more socially transgressive, but not gender nonconforming. Indeed, it's often motivated by feminism. Or lack of energy or time or fucks to give!

Men wearing a dress/skirt/heels down the high street looks gender nonconforming. Even then, I think the vast majority would look twice, then shrug. It would take a lot more self-belief for dh to do the shopping in my dress than for me to do the shopping in his jeans.

Make-up on men... unusual at Sainsburys midday, not at all on a night out in a major city. (Depends how feminine the face looks.)

This is a useful thread for me as I have almost no idea what gender non-conforming means online. It seems to mean different things in different places so on some sites it means being a clearly effeminate man (whatever that might mean as I'm not sure) or a butch woman or perhaps someone whom others truly find it different to see as male or female.

On other sites it seems to mean things like men wearing makeup or high heels.

It's hard to even try to define what might be gender non-conforming for women where I live. Not wearing makeup is clearly the rules for women here, and also within my wider family (weddings etc. are the exception). Not wearing dresses or skirts is a minority choice in clothing among women, except when it's very hot. High heels? I see some late at night when I watch people going to restaurants or theatres.

So this has to be something else? But what is it? A woman driving a bus? I see that all the time. Very short hair, hoodies, dark colour choices etc. have been around for women for at least forty years as a fairly large minority choice. It's only now that it seems to be viewed as gender non-conforming?

I have seen some psychologists argue that gender non-conforming is not adhering to 1950s sex roles? Do people actually adhere to those today and if so, when did they make their return?

On some level I think that the transgender movement is an attempt to create the teenage rebellion stage when the parents of those teens have done all the other more easily accessible forms of rebellion, including widening the gender boxes.

So the answer is to return them! But that would be politically very far right in the West, and the process of transitioning must then be added to return the movement to the more 'progressive' side.

I understand that what these terms might mean certainly depends on the culture where we live. In some countries gender norms are extremely strict and legally enforced, while in other countries they are much weaker. Still, I would love to get a better understanding what someone online means when they use that term.

Your DD sounds a lot like mine. Except DD isn't non binary and doesn't wear makeup.
I wouldn't know what someone else thought non conforming looked like or what the bar was.
I do think a lot of gen Z think they've invented this concept though and haven't quite worked out how few actual adult women do conform...

Gender rules are culturally specific. I have short hair: this is one of the ways women wear their hair at this time and place, so I am gender conforming. If I lived in nineteenth century England, I would not be gender conforming if I wore my hair like this.

this is why I think the pink/blue divide in children is so harmful.

young children are very gendered. Pink for girls, those headbands, skirts, “pretty clothes”. Practical and dark colours for boys.

parents following extreme social cues so strangers can tell what sex their baby is.

parents on here stating that gender ins innate because their girls like pink and dolls. Not even considering that advertising and societal expectations are absorbed even by very young children.

children grow up being told things are “for boys” or “for girls”.

the whole “girly girl” thing.

not suprising that today’s youngsters see the world in such a binary way.

parents are so resistant to crossing gender roles for young children. Very few will dress their children in a neutral on non binary way.

when was the last time you saw a prepubescent child that wasn’t clearly dressed according to their sex?

To DD and her friends it seems to mean 'fancies girls'. She has one friend who uses a male name and they/them pronouns with friends (parents and school use sex based name and pronouns). This friend doesn't dress in an androgenous style or have stereotypically masculine interests, but does have a girlfriend.

If I was part of the current subculture that sees particular styles of short hair as a way to signal you are 'non-binary', and I had that sort of haircut, I would also be gender conforming as I would be using the gender rules for my subculture.

As an older woman, my haircut signals nothing: it is just one of the haircuts available to me.

Short hair has been available for women in our culture for about 100 nyears, going in an out of fashion and taking various cultural meanings. When I first had my hair cut short, in my twenties, it was a popular haircut but one that was a bit alternative and even extreme to some people, and people responded accordingly.

I’m a gender atheist I guess. The fact I don’t conform to lots of culturally and historically specific rules and roles for women just means I’m not brainwashed or brow beaten into conforming to sexist stereotypes.

Gender non conforming used to be a kind of act of rebellion against societies dogma on what and how we were meant to be. Now the term has been co-opted in a way that actually reinforces stereotypes and pretends those stereotypes are real or innate. That’s not to say there aren’t any characteristics or behaviours more prevalent in one sex and another but there’s at least as many exceptions as correlations.

Join me in gender atheism and congratulate yourself on not having been brainwashed into and squashed yourself trying to fit some made up stereotypes.

Calling yourself a lesbian seems to be a no no for some.

If I was part of the current subculture that sees particular styles of short hair as a way to signal you are 'non-binary', and I had that sort of haircut, I would also be gender conforming as I would be using the gender rules for my subculture
This movement as a subculture rather than anything else. It's a tribal attachment that calls for a certain way to think, to act, to dress. Hence the dissonance when you have short hair - like my DD - but are not identifying as anything exotic. Increasingly people assume she is trans or male identifying because of her personal style being very close to the prescribed aesthetic.

Just means you don't fit stereotypes as far as I know.
Feel like the term is just a way of attention seeking tbh, it's just a preferred way you dress no different to emo, goth, jock, Instagram girl aesthetic imo

Show her photos of Annie Lennox, Grace Jones and David Bowie and blow her mind!

amen to that!

So it sounds like other