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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pile ons and it all bullying

21 replies

mids2019 · 08/04/2023 05:34

I noticed one 'tactit' of those arguing for TWAW andassociated reduction in women's rights is for advocates for these things to argue that multiple coherent arguments for safe spaces, fair sport etc. are pile ons.

If someone has a very minority opinion it is simply that; you are in a minority. This does not mean you are oppressed in any way.

It is also no way to walk away from a polite respectful opinion by simply saying 'bully'. I can state 'women do not have. a penis' and this is biology not bullying.

Additionally saying women menstruate does not mean I am a member of the far right; that is wrong and offensive. It is a poor position to accuse anyone speaking simple biological truth as having extreme political views, on fact you are in a majority.

OP posts:
Backstreets · 08/04/2023 06:58

It is a tactic, and the poster crying OHO! The pile on has begun! after -one- poster told her she disagreed was disingenuous in the extreme about it (the thread where op wanted mn to make a separate anti gc board).

Happylittlechicken · 08/04/2023 07:10

Well yes, when disagreement is hate and words are literal violence, and the fact you have no coherent argument means people question you, your only tactic is to claim bullying, harassment and pile ons. What else can you do. Most of the posters doing this subscribe to “no debate” so when people debate them and point out their arguments are dafter than Basil Brush, they can’t handle it. People aren’t supposed to disagree, so they are confused and angry that others are not following “the rules”. I think it’s why the only recourse the gender ideologists have is threats and violence. What else do they have? In my opinion, they are the bullies, not the victims.

WarriorN · 08/04/2023 07:43

It's a sign of immaturity. Teens expect everyone to think like them. And they generally rely on group mentality.

It's also not understanding how to debate. Any why that's important.

And then name calling is the weak person's get out.

WarriorN · 08/04/2023 07:44

It's also sometimes DARVO as they claim being bullied but actually tend to be the one calling the names.

pickledandpuzzled · 08/04/2023 08:04

I was told off for being 'useless at refuting arguments' by someone who kept saying that I was deliberately smearing people, clearly transphobic and too stupid to argue with.

Like, not a single refutation provided by them, or question answered. Basically just yelling 'Mum, she's picking on me!'.

Pathetic.

Abhannmor · 08/04/2023 08:39

Good points there. When I replied to an anti Rowling post on a FB page I soon realised I was in a minority because I supported her stance.

A minority of one to be precise. Those are the breaks ; I was genuinely outnumbered. And booted of course!

Perhaps trans supporting Mumsnetters could have a separate section in FWR. They wouldn't ever be exposed to other opinions. Not sure what good it would do them to self exclude though.

Helleofabore · 08/04/2023 09:01

The victimhood claim is a common one.

The way I see it work is:

Step 1: In your post, and it could be the first post you make on the thread, include inflammatory language, or quote a post using that language saying ‘ I agree!’

This language might be directly stating that MN or a poster is transphobic, ie ‘You won’t be able to have any discussion here, MN is transphobic’.

Words like echo chamber, anti-trans, lack of nuance, toxic, right wing, DM readers, hateful - the list is endless.

Or it could be indirect but still inflammatory. Such as using words to frame disagreement as being hate, ripping into, ripping apart, piling on, silencing, etc.

Step 2: When people respond to the inflammatory language, write more negative and denigrating posts while claiming that they are not inflammatory nor denigrating.

‘Echo chamber / anti- trans / ripping into (whatever example) is not inflammatory at all. Why are you all so mean!’

or, alternatively, reply about how of course MN is transphobic. The poster sees transphobic posts on MN all the time. And when asked to produce examples the posters cannot, will not or just double down.

And eventually it is discovered they are referring to posts that have been deleted!! But, of course, the regular posters are responsible and are the ones being deleted…. But on closer inspection aren’t.

Or the transphobia is calling someone male, when they are male, or other misgendering.

Step 3: Is to claim you have an answer that no one has seen or posited before ….. apparently. You know how to resolve this! This week was one, for example, about ‘including trans people in a sports committee making policy’ as a compromise. With the implication that trans people positively shaped the policy (based on what evidence I am still waiting for because if you read the accounts of the trans people involved the resulting policy wasn’t anything they wanted).

Step 4: Claim or continue to claim victimhood and throw in a personal attack or two. Call someone racist, or a child abuser, or demented, or a stalker, or a bully, or a misandrist, or choose any of a long list.

Step 5: Return to using inflammatory language while announcing that you probably agree with posters more than disagree, while never having posted anything indicating you agree with posters at all on the thread, but that ‘you are all so mean, you pile on, you don’t allow alternative opinions, you are hysterical, loud, self-congratulatory, joke making, (insert denigration), that no one will listen to you anyway!’

Remind posters that tone counts, while ignoring the posts you posted directly or indirectly that were inflammatory. Tell posters they are blunt, cruel, etc and should be nice, welcoming and don’t push back on those making inflammatory posts. Just be nice.

Make sure you mention you might agree, but don’t want to be associated to such mean, blunt and horrible people.

Deny again that you have been derogatory or inflammatory at all! Ignore the real transphobic, or misogynistic posters because they may have been the poster you quote posted in Step 1, or those other posters have also attacked the posters you thought were mean. Or you never actually read and thought about the meaning of the posts from the transphobic/ misogynist poster because on the surface they appeared to be arguing something similar, and you skimmed the words that showed the true intention because it roughly looked like someone agreeing with you.

Point out how posters think they are intelligent but really aren’t.

And flounce from the thread or from MN completely.

I saw this happen on a thread this week. But I have seen this happen on others regularly.

It is a tactic. It is either someone who doesn’t understand what women are campaigning for, or hasn’t really been involved on MN FWR so doesn’t see the wide range of threads we interact with every single day, and has a prejudiced view shaped from their own reading about the feminists of FWR or are not used to the constant tactics that start with Step 1.

Or it is someone who simply doesn’t agree that the rights of women and girls are being negatively impacted by the demands of one group.

Or it is someone who wants to shame posters for their very own reasons.

Either way, once you have seen it, it will run roughly to that script.

And why do we respond? Oh, yes that’s right, because apparently women should just take the negative labels and derision and rise above it. We shouldn’t point it out for any reason. Even if we do it to show readers the tactic so they can understand how activists seek to silence women they disagree with or others just want women to be ‘kind’.

WarriorN · 08/04/2023 09:08

Good analysis Helle.

There are some descriptions of debate tactics that I can't remember which are useful to include, as long as you explain the point.

A lot of it is extremely authoritarian.

Be kind is the evidence and instruction but it has no substance.

WarriorN · 08/04/2023 09:09

One is 'straw man argument' which took me a long time to spot in the wild because I'm too literal and just see a straw dolly

mids2019 · 08/04/2023 09:10

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0376kWQoN2djNWozJAzEGyW83b1RvRme7nZu8Y2qFwbF7i1zXrhVoNrhZvDanxwGwDl&id=28373121592&sfnsn=scwspmo

I used to like the Daily Mash being fairly left wing but they produced a very lame piece about JKR and certainly didn't read the room.

The comments section exposes the fact that the satire went down like a lead balloon which is encouraging

Again any common sense answers are met with cries of bigot

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OP posts:
Helleofabore · 08/04/2023 09:17

The insult of ‘daily mail reader’ is one that I only ever see on the AIBU board. It is hilarious to see it. Although, I have seen cheerleading FWR regulars post agreeing that DM articles are so biased, ill -informed and far right, while never answering whether Julie Bindel’s articles there are far right?

It is a discrediting tactic , but it actually really shows the poster’s own ignorance. Because if people cannot read and appropriately analyse articles from any media outlet due to their own prejudice, all that poster says is that they are the one with prejudiced views or ridiculously unable to read something and apply critical thinking to judge the article on its merits or lack of.

WarriorN · 08/04/2023 09:21

I used to think like that. And had forgotten all my history methodology training.

All sources and bias should be analysed.

What is truth? Etc.

Helleofabore · 08/04/2023 09:26

Using polarisation is also a tactic. It is a cognitive distortion that has either convinced someone that they are right or that they are using to try to convince others.

It is often used on MN when people make absolute statements around supporting something or someone.

It includes the guilt by association tactic.

For instance, any person who disagrees with the use of puberty blockers is doing so out of hate.

Or any person who isn’t socialist left or further left is ‘far right’. Or the ‘foodie’ or ‘baddie’ positioning.

There is a long list. However, it is this polarisation that then allows people to push back and then a claim of victimhood can be made.

Boiledbeetle · 08/04/2023 09:27

pickledandpuzzled · 08/04/2023 08:04

I was told off for being 'useless at refuting arguments' by someone who kept saying that I was deliberately smearing people, clearly transphobic and too stupid to argue with.

Like, not a single refutation provided by them, or question answered. Basically just yelling 'Mum, she's picking on me!'.

Pathetic.

I seriously was so sick of the word 'smearing ' last night. It was such an odd choice of insult given the thread topic involved probably much smearing!

It didn't matter what anyone said they just couldn't understand that they were the one showing the bigotry and lack of understanding.

It was a shame THAT some of that posters posts were deleted for going against talk guidelines because they were a wonderful example of not understanding your own position in an argument.

It wasn't you pickle with the lack of understanding of what was being discussed.

FrancescaContini · 08/04/2023 09:31

Agree that it’s very immature. “Far right” seems to be flung out at every opportunity to disagree. It always makes me think of Rik Mayall on the Young Ones.

FrancescaContini · 08/04/2023 09:33

I also don’t understand how disagreeing = “hate”. It’s very Rik, too.

HagoftheNorth · 08/04/2023 09:34

I do often wonder about the ‘pile on’ thing - it’s not as if we’re all coordinating it, we’re just expressing our own views/arguments. If all the arguments go against yours, and you can’t defend effectively, surely your argument deserves to go down!
I do really wish trans supporters would come and answer questions.debate properly. Their behaviour here just makes me think they have no valid arguments….. but of course, that might be the case!

mids2019 · 08/04/2023 09:38

The age thing is interesting.

I guess with age comes experience and with that you can see the real problems with a TRA agenda that need addressing.

However I think that are many teens/twenty something people that have GC views that may not express them due to feat of ostracism or even career limitations. I wil be honest if I were young looking at a new workspace and wanting to advance my career I would keep my mouth shut (which is a scary Orwellian dystopian place)

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 08/04/2023 09:46

Helleofabore · 08/04/2023 09:17

The insult of ‘daily mail reader’ is one that I only ever see on the AIBU board. It is hilarious to see it. Although, I have seen cheerleading FWR regulars post agreeing that DM articles are so biased, ill -informed and far right, while never answering whether Julie Bindel’s articles there are far right?

It is a discrediting tactic , but it actually really shows the poster’s own ignorance. Because if people cannot read and appropriately analyse articles from any media outlet due to their own prejudice, all that poster says is that they are the one with prejudiced views or ridiculously unable to read something and apply critical thinking to judge the article on its merits or lack of.

The won't read the Daily Mail posters really fuck me off.

The amount of questionable articles and publications and websites we've had to read stuff on in the quest to understand all this shit. And some uninformed person comes along calls us all names whilst throwing in they won't even click on a link for the Daily Mail as its got the wrong sort of political leanings!I

Fuck me!

mids2019 · 08/04/2023 10:00

I am economically left leaning , a natural Labour supporter so I really dislike agreeing with Tories but I do on this issue.

Is part of the issue that a lot of people in publishing/journalism/creative industries are likely to take on TRA stances as it is the default political position of the industry? (Think Hollywood).

There is therefore an exaggerated world view where the voice of the silent majority can't readily be heard. It must be scary being in such an industry and using your position to advocate GC views then have your career utterly destroyed.

OP posts:
pickledandpuzzled · 08/04/2023 12:00

That 'smeared' usage was a real Freudian slip.

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