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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Peter Boghossian discusses Gender Ideology with KJK

27 replies

NancyDrawed · 07/04/2023 08:10

I watched and enjoyed this last night.

Mostly both on the same page but still an interesting discussion.

Loved the clip of the Australian woman, with her "Nah, fuck it!" when she was asked if she would like PB to blur her face on the video.

Kellie-Jay Keen (Posie Parker) & Peter Boghossian: Gender Ideology Unhinged

I had the good fortune to be in Australia in March, the same time Kellie-Jay Keen brought her Let Women Speak (LWS) tour to Australia and New Zealand. We wer...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5YqYbYf1cw

OP posts:
JacquelinePot · 07/04/2023 08:12

I watched this, really interesting. It was funny seeing him try to ise his street epistemology technique on her. Most people he speaks to have a position (as Helen Joyce says) on an issue. But it's ill thought out and they struggle to explain or justify it. Obviously not so with KJK.

FOJN · 07/04/2023 08:27

I usually really enjoy listening to PB but I thought he interrupted and spoke over KJK too much. I loved the bit where he apologised for doing it and she said she was use to it.

RudsyFarmer · 07/04/2023 09:07

Thanks for posting this.

EndlessTea · 07/04/2023 09:31

I am half way watching. Argh he makes me impatient. He takes so bloody long to get a sentence out of his mouth. I can see PPs frustration. The video takes four times as long as it should. I’d love to have a version when his bits are speeded up with subtitles and it slows down to normal for PP.

That was a great interview he got with the woman in Melbourne though.

HBGKC · 07/04/2023 10:09

Eurgh yes! By all accounts he's an intelligent man, but his thought processes seem slow, and rather confused, and he takes forever to put a simple point to Posie - and then interrupts her when she's just started answering, to branch off on another tangent!

It's very frustrating, and lacks basic courtesy from interviewer to interviewee to literally never allow them to fully answer the questions that they have asked! 😵‍💫

FOJN · 07/04/2023 10:48

I thought the Winston Marshall podcast was very good. He really seemed to have done his homework and he listened without interrupting. I haven't encountered him before but I though he did a good job in this interview with KJK.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 07/04/2023 10:54

FOJN · 07/04/2023 10:48

I thought the Winston Marshall podcast was very good. He really seemed to have done his homework and he listened without interrupting. I haven't encountered him before but I though he did a good job in this interview with KJK.

He used to be in the band Mumford and Sons - left when the mob lost their shit over him saying he appreciated Andy NGO’s book on AntiFa.

He seems like a pretty thoughtful chap.

Boiledbeetle · 07/04/2023 10:54

EndlessTea · 07/04/2023 09:31

I am half way watching. Argh he makes me impatient. He takes so bloody long to get a sentence out of his mouth. I can see PPs frustration. The video takes four times as long as it should. I’d love to have a version when his bits are speeded up with subtitles and it slows down to normal for PP.

That was a great interview he got with the woman in Melbourne though.

Just keep changing the speeds in the settings. He works well at x 2 and then slow KJK down back to normal speeds for her parts!

EmotionalSupportHyena · 07/04/2023 10:55

Poor Andy - auto correct thinks he’s a Non Governmental Organisation!

FOJN · 07/04/2023 11:19

EmotionalSupportHyena · 07/04/2023 10:54

He used to be in the band Mumford and Sons - left when the mob lost their shit over him saying he appreciated Andy NGO’s book on AntiFa.

He seems like a pretty thoughtful chap.

Ah yes, I remember that but I didn't know his name.

Helleofabore · 07/04/2023 11:24

thanks Nancy

That was good to watch.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 07/04/2023 11:33

FOJN · 07/04/2023 11:19

Ah yes, I remember that but I didn't know his name.

I’ve just been reading about him - apparently his family are super mega rich, which must’ve made the prospect of a mob cancellation a bit less scary!

The band were giving press interviews in 2018 saying they thought musicians should keep their traps shut about politics (imagine a Billy Bragg without politics 😆) and it seems like Winston stuck to his word as in 2021 he gave up the band rather than stay silent about the things that interested/concerned him.

He seems quite self aware and describes his his younger self as a ‘Trustafarian’.

He seemed genuinely interested in what Posie had to say and I found myself cracking up at how aghast he sounded when they are talking about phalloplasty. I was listening to an audio only version but I’m now going to watch that bit now so I can see his facial expression.

I notice the comments on both podcasts are plentiful and very supportive of Posie and her message.

She’s doing a great job.

NancyDrawed · 07/04/2023 11:53

FOJN · 07/04/2023 11:19

Ah yes, I remember that but I didn't know his name.

I watched the WInston and KJK discussion a few days ago, but hadn't made the connection between the bespectacled Spectator journalist and the man I saw on Triggernometry a while back talking about why he had left Mumford and Sons.

First 10 mins of this episode for those interested.

What I Learned From Leaving Mumford & Sons - Winston Marshall

Musician Winston Marshall discusses how one tweet changed his life and why more artists are self-censoring. Check out Winston's podcast *Marshall Matters* he...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w7TY3k3Zz8

OP posts:
EndlessTea · 07/04/2023 11:58

I’ve been having a little think about the PB/PB one and also the fact there is a thread going at the moment about a report that asexuals feel excluded from the LGBT has just come out.

There’s a bit where PB asks Posie - what caused this buy in - and he doesn’t let her finish, so I think she would have mentioned this if he didn’t stop her - she only gets to talk about social pressure/social sanction to conform.

What I was thinking about, is that we are now in a situation where an industry- the diversity and inclusion training industry, is scrabbling around looking for things to do. I know people have spoken a lot about Stonewall having nothing left to do after gay marriage was won (Simon Edge basically explores this in his book The End of The World Is Flat), so they adopted transgenderism as their next fight.

What Posie didn’t also get a chance to say, is that it is about bureaucracy.

It’s about box-ticking, funding applications, annual reports, key performance indicators, time sheets, quarterly reviews, project management, equal opps forms, targets, etc, etc.

Posie said ‘I don’t think they do buy into it’ and I think she is right, PB suggests that people must buy into it, or there wouldn’t be such widespread adoption of transgenderism causing serious harm - rapists in women’s prisons, mutilated teens.

Apologies in advance for this example, [trigger warning] but one of the most horrific things about the NAZIs was that the genocide they committed wasn’t some wild, crazed madness, it was structured, deliberate and devoid of human emotion, photographing, cataloguing and numbering everything - impeccable record-keeping - its chilling.

What this teaches is that human beings are capable of detachment when it comes to records and stats, the information is dehumanised, thoughts of right and wrong don’t come into it. “I just take down these figures, I put the data here, send if off here to be added to the quarterly report, etc” and what the data represents, no matter how horrific isn’t even thought about.

When men are put in women’s prisons, those responsible don’t buy in, they don’t believe this man is a woman. It is that this directive has been sent out, this rule must be followed, these targets must be reached, this policy must be adhered to, this process must be logged, this is the procedure.

Yes people don’t want to lose their jobs, but if they weren’t able to do that cold, dehumanising compartmentalisation in order to follow whatever procedure, they wouldn’t be able to do it, their conscience wouldn’t allow them to.

This self-generating bureaucracy monster of ‘Diversity and Inclusion’ consultancy, is looking to keep feeding. It has been making shit up to justify its own existence- asexuality reports FGS. Looking for weaknesses in businesses and public services and charities to enter and wedge open, take their money in exchange for some bureaucracy, creating problems where there are not to justify its existence.

EndlessTea · 07/04/2023 12:00

Boiledbeetle · 07/04/2023 10:54

Just keep changing the speeds in the settings. He works well at x 2 and then slow KJK down back to normal speeds for her parts!

Fantastic advice for anyone who wants to watch!

FOJN · 07/04/2023 12:55

EndlessTea · 07/04/2023 11:58

I’ve been having a little think about the PB/PB one and also the fact there is a thread going at the moment about a report that asexuals feel excluded from the LGBT has just come out.

There’s a bit where PB asks Posie - what caused this buy in - and he doesn’t let her finish, so I think she would have mentioned this if he didn’t stop her - she only gets to talk about social pressure/social sanction to conform.

What I was thinking about, is that we are now in a situation where an industry- the diversity and inclusion training industry, is scrabbling around looking for things to do. I know people have spoken a lot about Stonewall having nothing left to do after gay marriage was won (Simon Edge basically explores this in his book The End of The World Is Flat), so they adopted transgenderism as their next fight.

What Posie didn’t also get a chance to say, is that it is about bureaucracy.

It’s about box-ticking, funding applications, annual reports, key performance indicators, time sheets, quarterly reviews, project management, equal opps forms, targets, etc, etc.

Posie said ‘I don’t think they do buy into it’ and I think she is right, PB suggests that people must buy into it, or there wouldn’t be such widespread adoption of transgenderism causing serious harm - rapists in women’s prisons, mutilated teens.

Apologies in advance for this example, [trigger warning] but one of the most horrific things about the NAZIs was that the genocide they committed wasn’t some wild, crazed madness, it was structured, deliberate and devoid of human emotion, photographing, cataloguing and numbering everything - impeccable record-keeping - its chilling.

What this teaches is that human beings are capable of detachment when it comes to records and stats, the information is dehumanised, thoughts of right and wrong don’t come into it. “I just take down these figures, I put the data here, send if off here to be added to the quarterly report, etc” and what the data represents, no matter how horrific isn’t even thought about.

When men are put in women’s prisons, those responsible don’t buy in, they don’t believe this man is a woman. It is that this directive has been sent out, this rule must be followed, these targets must be reached, this policy must be adhered to, this process must be logged, this is the procedure.

Yes people don’t want to lose their jobs, but if they weren’t able to do that cold, dehumanising compartmentalisation in order to follow whatever procedure, they wouldn’t be able to do it, their conscience wouldn’t allow them to.

This self-generating bureaucracy monster of ‘Diversity and Inclusion’ consultancy, is looking to keep feeding. It has been making shit up to justify its own existence- asexuality reports FGS. Looking for weaknesses in businesses and public services and charities to enter and wedge open, take their money in exchange for some bureaucracy, creating problems where there are not to justify its existence.

I think this is a very valid point and reconciles the gap between what people actually believe and what they publicly endorse. There are a whole load of people playing the EDI game right now because for some it gives them a job and for others it helps them keep their job.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 07/04/2023 13:17

FOJN · 07/04/2023 12:55

I think this is a very valid point and reconciles the gap between what people actually believe and what they publicly endorse. There are a whole load of people playing the EDI game right now because for some it gives them a job and for others it helps them keep their job.

It also explains the difference in attitudes between white collar and blue collar type workers and people from middle class and working class families.

The worst of the Gen Xers on this are the middle class lefties who are terrorised by their own well-educated off spring.

The new HR grads bring EDI into the org and their bosses (around their parents age) are desperate to be right on and so implement ill thought out policy across the entire workplace, even when it’s not compliant with the actual law (which happens a lot here because it’s imported from the US where employment law differs state to state and some workers have almost no rights at all),

This is the root cause of Maya Forstater’s workplace bother.

I often think that the fewer emails a person sends on their average workday, the less likely they are to give a shit about pronouns.

People who work in the trades and the heavy industries are too busy making sure no worker loses an eye or a limb to worry about the worker’s inner sense of self.

That the NHS and our police forces are riddled with EDI vampires is a perfect illustrator as to how public services have become way to managerial/admin-y and lost their focus, leaving us without enough bobbies on the beat or nurses on the ward.

EndlessTea · 07/04/2023 13:37

There are a whole load of people playing the EDI game right now because for some it gives them a job and for others it helps them keep their job.

This is so well put FJON.

It also explains the difference in attitudes between white collar and blue collar type workers and people from middle class and working class families.

Yes. I hadn’t really thought about the class element EmotionalSupportHyena.

People having very little experience outside academia, never actually road-testing their theories, start writing the ridiculous made-up impractical rules, which only make sense in the abstract, for everyone else to follow. They have no idea how absurd they are being - winging it and not getting any pushback, mistaking open-mouthed disbelief, in the people they advise, for obedient adoption.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 07/04/2023 15:42

The interesting thing about the class element is that increased university access due to New Labour policy (and the degree-ification of things like nursing, policing and social work) means old definitions of class aren’t as useful and it’s now a pretty messy division.

You can see this in who is on what I am (semi jokingly!) going to call Team Posie and The Domesticated Zombies and Team Jane and The Head Girls (or TeamDomZom and TeamHeadGirls for short).

Calling Team Jane and the Head Girls the ‘academics’ ‘socialists’ ‘left wing’ or ‘middle class’ GC feminists doesn’t really work, because there are plenty of academics, socialists, middle class and left wing women on Team Posie and the Domesticated Zombies too.

Loads of us who would seem like a natural fit for TeamHeadGirls are TeamDomZom all the way.
Not because we are too stupid to understand the theory, not because we haven’t been to university, not because we’re rightwingers or racists or whatever stupid shit that gets thrown at us.

But because we see the academic and political theory for what it is, which is ideas, concepts, some highfalutin thought experiments that mostly started with a bunch of Dead European Philosophers.

Interesting theories to think about, sure, especially in relation to arts criticism, but often utterly useless in real world scenarios.

I love a bit of PoMo in the Fine Arts, me, but I can see that in Social Work, in Healthcare, in Construction, in Industry, in Primary and Secondary Education PoMo is not just useless, it’s destructive.

Even lots of the second wave Feminist Theory is utterly useless in the real world and perhaps the academic theory always was a bit useless, compared the activism of the period? The bits of theory that did have material value have been cannibalised for implementation (eg Female Separatism is not practical at all times for all women but it’s a really important element of DV shelters and Rape Crisis devices) nonetheless, loads of it is just thought experiments. Perhaps important thought experiments of the time but not necessary to read now.

Implementing interesting academic theories Willy-Nilly in the real world is Roads to Hell Paved with Good Intentions situation.

TeamDomZom are the people who understand this, some of whom are themselves distinguished academics.

TeamHeadGirl are the people who aren’t willing or able to accept that their pet academic or political theories might not be the solution to real world problems.
Some of them are from working class families and have slogged their guts out to get a fancy university education. They might not have a pot to piss in terms of savings or home ownership but they’ve invested a lot of time and money in their education. They could be single mums on benefits or be working day jobs that they could’ve got without wasting a single day, let alone accruing thirty grand plus of student debt.

Admitting that they worked their arses off for something that might actually just be smoke and mirrors is going to be almost as hard for them as it is for the mums of transitioned kiddies to admit that actually, if they’d not gone all in as SJW Hero Mummy their kids might have avoided becoming medical patients for life.

And if you can’t face up to the knowledge that you’ve invested an awful lot of yourself in something that wasn’t really worthwhile, what better way to avoid that reckoning than to go forth and insist that everyone else recognise How Very Important your Thing is, and demand loads of other people also do your Thing with you as their guiding expert?

There are loads of extremely clever, highly educated women (some Professors) who are absolutely able to say, ‘I love this niche intellectual thing I studied but I realise it doesn’t actually do shit, ideas aren’t action’ and that puts them on TeamDomZom, even if they’ve never had a heterosexual relationship or wiped another person’s arse in their lives.

EDI is the same sorts of academic ideas and theories that TeamHeadGirl have bought into being imposed onto normies by people who either learned them first hand at uni or secondhand via their uni educated children or having been ‘trained’ in them by external workplace schemes like Stonewall.

EDI interventions don’t actually work very well, in fact, sometimes they backfire spectacularly (as seen in the workplaces that become more racially divided after a Robin D’Angelo style antiracism training session) but there are enough TeamHeadGirl types about that they will not give up on the theories and keep trying to implement them in slightly different ways.

The only difference between TeamHeadGirl and The GeneralEDIBorg is that TeamHeadGirl have just about managed to cling on to enough Second Wave Feminist Theory that they haven’t bought into Queer Theory.

The rest of us have kept the bits of Second Wave Theory that have proved useful to women in the real world and jettisoned the bonkers bits (some of which gets pretty close to transhumanism!)

Same with Lesbian and Gay rights, sensible gays have kept the useful bits of Queer Theory (normalisation of homosexuality leading to same sex marriage) and jettisoned the bonkers bits (a relentless drive to try and normalise stuff that is not-normal because it’s actually harmful to society, especially children). The sensible gays are now decried as ‘homonormative’ and ‘rightwing’, just as the sensible feminists are now described as ‘bio essentialists’ and ‘rightwing’ and the black people who promote a MLK route towards race equality and reject CRT style ‘equity’ are called ‘Uncle Toms’ and ‘rightwing’

Being ’Progressive’ is useless if it progresses humanity off a cliff edge.
Most people instinctively understand this, unless they’ve either completely bought into a theory or have had a theory enforced on them in such a way that they are prevented from thinking it all the way through to the end (eg by being shouted down and/or punished if they ask inconvenient questions, or by witnessing punishment enacted on others, see that teenage boy who was kicked out of school for questioning his teacher’s assertions re: 100 genders)

At work, people are dissuaded from thinking through a bullshit EDI theory by fear of job loss.

To put this back on topic, both Peter and Winston lost their jobs because they wouldn’t nod along with the fashionable theories of the day, enforced by the twittermob.

Posie didn’t have a job to lose (you can’t get fired from being a mother!) which is partly why the mob has to resort to violence to stop her speaking.

Being an actual woman is an additional red rag to the Gender Branch of the EDI mob.

TheBiologyStupid · 07/04/2023 23:43

On holiday and haven't had a chance to watch yet. I like Boghossian (first came across him when he was involved in the "Grievance Studies hoax" with Helen Pluckrose and James Lindsay), so I'm disappointed to hear from PPs that he talks over KJK. Sounds like he at least had the decency to notice and apologise, but that doesn't excuse it of course.

UtopiaPlanitia · 08/04/2023 01:54

EmotionalSupportHyena · 07/04/2023 15:42

The interesting thing about the class element is that increased university access due to New Labour policy (and the degree-ification of things like nursing, policing and social work) means old definitions of class aren’t as useful and it’s now a pretty messy division.

You can see this in who is on what I am (semi jokingly!) going to call Team Posie and The Domesticated Zombies and Team Jane and The Head Girls (or TeamDomZom and TeamHeadGirls for short).

Calling Team Jane and the Head Girls the ‘academics’ ‘socialists’ ‘left wing’ or ‘middle class’ GC feminists doesn’t really work, because there are plenty of academics, socialists, middle class and left wing women on Team Posie and the Domesticated Zombies too.

Loads of us who would seem like a natural fit for TeamHeadGirls are TeamDomZom all the way.
Not because we are too stupid to understand the theory, not because we haven’t been to university, not because we’re rightwingers or racists or whatever stupid shit that gets thrown at us.

But because we see the academic and political theory for what it is, which is ideas, concepts, some highfalutin thought experiments that mostly started with a bunch of Dead European Philosophers.

Interesting theories to think about, sure, especially in relation to arts criticism, but often utterly useless in real world scenarios.

I love a bit of PoMo in the Fine Arts, me, but I can see that in Social Work, in Healthcare, in Construction, in Industry, in Primary and Secondary Education PoMo is not just useless, it’s destructive.

Even lots of the second wave Feminist Theory is utterly useless in the real world and perhaps the academic theory always was a bit useless, compared the activism of the period? The bits of theory that did have material value have been cannibalised for implementation (eg Female Separatism is not practical at all times for all women but it’s a really important element of DV shelters and Rape Crisis devices) nonetheless, loads of it is just thought experiments. Perhaps important thought experiments of the time but not necessary to read now.

Implementing interesting academic theories Willy-Nilly in the real world is Roads to Hell Paved with Good Intentions situation.

TeamDomZom are the people who understand this, some of whom are themselves distinguished academics.

TeamHeadGirl are the people who aren’t willing or able to accept that their pet academic or political theories might not be the solution to real world problems.
Some of them are from working class families and have slogged their guts out to get a fancy university education. They might not have a pot to piss in terms of savings or home ownership but they’ve invested a lot of time and money in their education. They could be single mums on benefits or be working day jobs that they could’ve got without wasting a single day, let alone accruing thirty grand plus of student debt.

Admitting that they worked their arses off for something that might actually just be smoke and mirrors is going to be almost as hard for them as it is for the mums of transitioned kiddies to admit that actually, if they’d not gone all in as SJW Hero Mummy their kids might have avoided becoming medical patients for life.

And if you can’t face up to the knowledge that you’ve invested an awful lot of yourself in something that wasn’t really worthwhile, what better way to avoid that reckoning than to go forth and insist that everyone else recognise How Very Important your Thing is, and demand loads of other people also do your Thing with you as their guiding expert?

There are loads of extremely clever, highly educated women (some Professors) who are absolutely able to say, ‘I love this niche intellectual thing I studied but I realise it doesn’t actually do shit, ideas aren’t action’ and that puts them on TeamDomZom, even if they’ve never had a heterosexual relationship or wiped another person’s arse in their lives.

EDI is the same sorts of academic ideas and theories that TeamHeadGirl have bought into being imposed onto normies by people who either learned them first hand at uni or secondhand via their uni educated children or having been ‘trained’ in them by external workplace schemes like Stonewall.

EDI interventions don’t actually work very well, in fact, sometimes they backfire spectacularly (as seen in the workplaces that become more racially divided after a Robin D’Angelo style antiracism training session) but there are enough TeamHeadGirl types about that they will not give up on the theories and keep trying to implement them in slightly different ways.

The only difference between TeamHeadGirl and The GeneralEDIBorg is that TeamHeadGirl have just about managed to cling on to enough Second Wave Feminist Theory that they haven’t bought into Queer Theory.

The rest of us have kept the bits of Second Wave Theory that have proved useful to women in the real world and jettisoned the bonkers bits (some of which gets pretty close to transhumanism!)

Same with Lesbian and Gay rights, sensible gays have kept the useful bits of Queer Theory (normalisation of homosexuality leading to same sex marriage) and jettisoned the bonkers bits (a relentless drive to try and normalise stuff that is not-normal because it’s actually harmful to society, especially children). The sensible gays are now decried as ‘homonormative’ and ‘rightwing’, just as the sensible feminists are now described as ‘bio essentialists’ and ‘rightwing’ and the black people who promote a MLK route towards race equality and reject CRT style ‘equity’ are called ‘Uncle Toms’ and ‘rightwing’

Being ’Progressive’ is useless if it progresses humanity off a cliff edge.
Most people instinctively understand this, unless they’ve either completely bought into a theory or have had a theory enforced on them in such a way that they are prevented from thinking it all the way through to the end (eg by being shouted down and/or punished if they ask inconvenient questions, or by witnessing punishment enacted on others, see that teenage boy who was kicked out of school for questioning his teacher’s assertions re: 100 genders)

At work, people are dissuaded from thinking through a bullshit EDI theory by fear of job loss.

To put this back on topic, both Peter and Winston lost their jobs because they wouldn’t nod along with the fashionable theories of the day, enforced by the twittermob.

Posie didn’t have a job to lose (you can’t get fired from being a mother!) which is partly why the mob has to resort to violence to stop her speaking.

Being an actual woman is an additional red rag to the Gender Branch of the EDI mob.

Hyena, if I may call you that 😊, that’s a very interesting analysis and it matches quite a lot of what I’ve observed in the real world. You’ve given me lots to ponder 👍👍

Kucinghitam · 08/04/2023 06:39

@EmotionalSupportHyena and @EndlessTea really good posts, lots of food for thought!

JoodyBlue · 08/04/2023 13:04

I'm just dropping a note of appreciation to the thread - not much to say but I am enjoying these observations. But this from @EndlessTea :

Yes people don’t want to lose their jobs, but if they weren’t able to do that cold, dehumanising compartmentalisation in order to follow whatever procedure, they wouldn’t be able to do it, their conscience wouldn’t allow them to.

this is what really upsets me and I find hard to forgive in people. I don't understand how people can lie to children and allow them to become harmed. I find it hard to acknowledge that modern humans can do this. It is very chilling. As a child I often thought about how I would respond to times described in history, if when the time came calling I would fall in line, I always thought I wouldn't. I haven't. But I am appalled by the fact that so many of my peers have just rolled over. Lost huge respect for some people. But most of all for teachers, for doctors, for journalists, for social workers - people who should have held the line.

turbonerd · 08/04/2023 17:41

EmotionalSupportHyena · 07/04/2023 10:45

Posie was on Winston Marshall’s podcast this week too

She is thoughtful and very clear on what she stands for and why.

I know nothing about the guy but he seemed calm and rational and let his interviewee speak.

I am glad I watched it and wish British politics good luck - it is much improved with Mrs Keen-Minshull in it

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