Are there people who consider themselves both Gender-Critical and Non-Binary?

[GenZecoWych]

(mn regular, FWR regular, namechange for this thread only)

It sort of feels like these two terms "Gender Critical" and "Non-Binary" can't possibly apply to the same individual because if you are Gender Critical then that intrinsically means understanding everyone as non-binary.

Most people in my family are autistic, including myself and my child.

I consider myself GC. I don't have a gender identity, but if I did believe in gender as a thing I would be non-binary because I certainly have no female gender identity. But although I am not cis I have never considered using they/them pronouns myself because it seems to me that doing so is rather a way of confirming that male and female sexist stereotypes are true and appropriate for most people, indeed for everyone who isn't they/them - and that seems wrong to me.

I have brought up DC in as un-sexist a way as possible. I have always said "gender is sexism". But the world is still very sexist.

DC (male, age 13) wishes to identify as non-binary and use they/them pronouns. They are clear that they understand themselves as male, have no wish to deny that or change their body, but they think that this will distance them from the sexist male behaviour of the majority of boys they see around them - they think that this move will put them in a different category and consider this to be an important way to express their non-sexism. It's a totally different view point to my own.

They don't want to talk about it and don't want my advice. My feeling is that they think they can make this change to avoid sexists making sexist assumptions about them but I don't think the world is going to be kind like that. People will make even more assumptions about them as a person who asks for they/them pronouns.

I know that I can't talk them out of this, and that my role is to love and accept them for who they are, and that we don't have to agree on this. We already disagree on many things (matters of vegetarianism or otherwise, matters of the existence or otherwise of a deity/deities etc).

I also know that if they reach out to other pro-gender-ideology people or groups in the hopes of finding understanding and people with a similar mindset they are going to encounter points of view that are much more sexist and unpleasant, including groomers and abusers who use the trans umbrella for disguise. I am frightened. Are there any organisations or forums which focus on teens who are trying to make sense of all of this which try to create a space where a GC understanding of biology and a non-binary kind of self-expression can coexist?

No because you are female, that is your sex. non binary is an imaginary fantasy state where sex doesn't exist.

Gender non conforming is what you describe.

If you don't believe gender identity exists then you don't believe in a "non binary" identity.

they think that this will distance them from the sexist male behaviour of the majority of boys they see around them - they think that this move will put them in a different category and consider this to be an important way to express their non-sexism. It's a totally different view point to my own.

He's struggling with internalised sexism. He still can't accept that you can be gender non conforming as a male.

I can understand why he's feeling this as at that age, if this other option exists then it's easier to choose that than be a male who shrugs off gender stereotypes. Most teens struggle to be different and have a deep desire to be part of a crew.

Might be worth asking Stella O'Malley about his on her AMA/webchat thingy, OP?

I have been told by loads of teenagers "You are non binary"
"No, I am a woman, I have 2 children. I find that very offensive" gives them pause for thought in my experience.

Are there any organisations or forums which focus on teens who are trying to make sense of all of this which try to create a space where a GC understanding of biology and a non-binary kind of self-expression can coexist?

Unfortunately I believe it's all shoved under the trans umbrella. Probably slightly less damaging for a male as they won't have surgery. for girls they tend to want to have a mastectomy and/ or micro dose testosterone (current tiktok trend to deepen your voice only.)

But as a male they tend to then claim access to women's spaces so it's doubly damaging for girls.

No one can really define non binary - it's certainly v cultish and for males, entitled.

Stella is a good shout but I doubt anything exists that won't be deemed transphobic

Do they want to be ‘safer’ to others around them - other boys and girls? By identifying out of their boyness?
School is a small world and can be very toxic.
I would have a look at what they are view online. Are they in the school Pride/gay club and you are or are not aware of it?
It’s a real dilemma to be in as a parent. Reassure him they he can continue to be good and kind and a boy. Boy doesn’t equal rude, misogynistic, rough housing etc. He sounds like he would make a great friend. Kind and with a good knowledge of himself. That’s a great gift to have. Many just go with the crowd.

My teen thinks I should be labeled non-binary because I do not feel constrained by sexist stereotypes. I raised her with the idea that gender was an external imposition that should be rejected. She chose a different belief system. We have had to table this discussion because we just approach this from completely different perspectives and she gets ridiculously angry that I won’t agree with her position. The fact that I won’t condemn jk Rowling is tantamount to heresy.

my approach is to respect the names and pronouns of the teenagers in my life. I am the mom that takes them to queer events (that word is so difficult for my generation, but it is the one they choose.). I am trying to maintain a positive relationship and keep the lines of communication open. I’m seeing many of her friends keeping big secrets from their parents and that scares me more than anything else.

My teen thinks I should be labeled non-binary because I do not feel constrained by sexist stereotypes.

They want to label you because you don't want to be labelled?😂

That's a really helpful take @Ponderingwindow thank you. And also thank you to others.

DC doesn't want to gain access to female changing rooms/facilities, for those who asked. Some friends are female, they may have told DC that they "aren't like the other boys" (a lot of loud Andrew Tate fans as far as I can see)

On other threads I’ve seen the LGB parents board and teen board mentioned for advice

Also, I think there is maybe a discussion (which you’ve probably had) to be had with your son about what non binary means to him and what gender critical means to you as maybe he will find he agrees with you more than he realises - there seems to be lots of room for interpretation/misinformation when I just did a quick shit Google. As PP said he can be all the things he wants to be and be a boy.

If i had to put myself into one of these labels I'm probably agender. Makes no difference to anything sex-related.

Non-binary is like saying "there is a gender binary but I'm above that".

they think that this will distance them from the sexist male behaviour of the majority of boys they see around them - they think that this move will put them in a different category and consider this to be an important way to express their non-sexism. It's a totally different view point to my own.

Ultimately this is a bit unkind and exclusionary - it's reinforcing that "boy" can't include non-macho boys, non-sexist boys. Which is quite prejudiced and sort of "pulling the ladder up" kind of thing in my view.

Yes I was wondering what I would be - and who I would have been without the male gaze and the patriarchy

To imagine yourself non-binary, you have to believe that most other people are binary. If you knew that other people are binary by sex, you wouldn't believe yourself to be non binary, so you have to be basing it on the notion that other people are binary by gender.

So no, you cannot be non-binary and gender critical.

They would also have to consider themselves Terminally Confused.

I don’t think stuff means what they think it means

Most of the parents in the gender skeptical support groups are trying to walk a similar line.
Push too hard against The GenderBorg and we risk alienating our children and pushing them into the arms of extremists.

Accept everything they say and we risk them escalating in ‘transition goals’ (teens often need a safe boundary and will push and push until they get one).

Bayswater Support, Our Duty, Parents of ROGD kids will all be good sources of support for you. There is a good Facebook group too, if you PM me I will send you the details).

Personally I would look to find other ways to build your child’s self confidence, away from the computer and out in the real world, preferably in activities that have GNC male role models (eg music) whilst asking gentle questions and offering compromise re: things like name changes and freedom in things like hair styles.

Obvs not trying to label your child and am only googling and reporting back, but I’ve found about 7 different definitions of non binary - as PP said I think I would consider myself Agender but that has loads of definitions too so I don’t know how anyone knows what anyone is talking about

As an aside, no wonder the non GC lot can’t muster a message thread between them, none of the bollox I’ve just read would stand up to any closer examination

Oh FFS just tell him to be a non sexist good decent man.

No it is not possible and I think affirming your son, which is what you are doing by using they/them, you are sending a dangerous message to your clearly vulnerable teen. I've known a few parents with teens in similar situations and they have quietly ignored the new pronouns and/or name and gently reassured the teens they are loved, and eventually the teens have grown out of it. Please don't allow your son to think that 'non-binary' is a valid option because it isn't.

OP I really understand what you are saying. Through my 20s I thought I was part bloke. I had my own language as non binary didn't exist. I wouldhave identified as nb, if only privately in my head. But knowing full well my sex was female.

Like other PPs say it's more like saying you are gender non conforming in this case, perhaps NB could be seen as a shorter, trendier way of putting it. I'm a non binary girl or non binary boy.

A bit like sticking your toe into a religion or belief system but not going hook line and sinker. Maybe this is more like what your child is experiencing.

Actually partly thanks to these conversations I realise there is no correct way to be a woman, I don't identify as anything these days.

So every man who doesn't agree with Andrew Tate has to step in the non binary cloak so we then know the difference.

No, we know the difference! Just don't be a sexist prick and we won't lump you in with the sexiest pricks

They are clear that they understand themselves as male, have no wish to deny that or change their body, but they think that this will distance them from the sexist male behaviour of the majority of boys they see around them - they think that this move will put them in a different category
Why is he comparing to other boys? Why not compare to men - to good role models - and say that that is what he wants to grow into.

What does he think of Sam Smith? Does DS want to be seen as being in the same boat as him?

Also, remind DS that actions speak louder than labels words.

In my day 70s, 80s it was 'androgynous' Show your son photos of David Bowie and Annie Lennox and Grace Jones ..
there is nothing new under the ☀️ sun!
this ignorance of history is appalling.