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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY NEED HELP!!!!!

20 replies

ZIEVAR · 04/04/2023 18:44

I recently was called sexist by my daughter. I am an older female. Never even heard of a female being sexist towards another female. So, I started to read some of these threads. And I really don't understand accronyms. Please help me understand what these debates are all about. Modern Feminism, Transgender and all the various sub-divisions. I was really upset by the argument that developed with my family, and, apart from that, I really do want to understand how the world is developing. Thank you.

OP posts:
1Week · 04/04/2023 18:46

There's a thread on this section called Break It Down For Me which will have answers to those questions and ones you never even thought to ask!

NotHavingIt · 04/04/2023 18:47

What prompted the 'sexist' accusations?

Feemie · 04/04/2023 18:48

OP, if you’re older and alive, you’ve lived though, or participated in some of the waves of feminism since the 50s, surely? What exactly did your daughter accuse you of?

Musomama1 · 04/04/2023 18:49

Women can be sexist towards their own sex. It's called internalised mysogyny.

DoTrollsShitInTheThreads · 04/04/2023 18:50

Quick google brought up a list of the acronyms
www.mumsnet.com/i/acronyms

BlackForestCake · 04/04/2023 18:51

Well, for example, if a mother always asked her daughter to do the dishes, but never asked her son, that would be sexist.

But we need to hear from the original poster about what has brought her here.

IwantToRetire · 04/04/2023 18:55

But we need to hear from the original poster about what has brought her here.

Yes please OP do come back and reply.

After all there is always the possibility that your daughter isn't right!

So what did you say or do that made her accuse you of being sexist?

PomegranateOfPersephone · 04/04/2023 18:55

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

It sounds like you are a woman OP. All this talk of female reminds me of the dad in “Friday night Dinner”. You are a human being, a woman.

ZIEVAR · 04/04/2023 19:00

I know I lived through the beginnings of the Feminism Movement. I was at university at that time. That's why I was so shocked by her accusation, and she was really angry and upset. Firstly, she believes that I favour her brother's opinion to her own. From that, she thinks that if she gives me an opinion on something I ask about, then I should not ask what her husband thinks, or her brother. Another daughter also thinks that I favour mens' opinion. My youngest daughter laughs and tell me her brother is my favourite. I won't tell you what my son thinks about it all! And, believe it or not, this all came about when I was drawing up my power of attorney.

OP posts:
ZIEVAR · 04/04/2023 19:05

I should add that my whole life's work has been with groups. It is second nature to me to solicit everyone's opinion, before I hake a decision.

OP posts:
Rubygrapefruitwithchilli · 04/04/2023 19:05

I suspect you have had an argument about the transgender issue op.

Honestly, even if we come to understand that issue (understand, not necessarily agree) , we will be blamed for a thousand more, because to be female and over a certain age nowadays, is to be wrong, by definition!

This phenomenon is what I call the spreading "Karen-isation" of the Internet! We are all stupid, toxic narcissists apparently!

And I think it may have something to do with the fact that we are the the people prepared to call "bullshit" when we see it because, well, men aren't are they? And we are also calling "enough" to the burgeoning misogyny evident in daily life; in the workplace and on sm, and I'm sorry to say among some of the male homosexual community too, and to express concerns about young men being raised on porn.

And mothers in particular are either portrayed as totally evil or totally angelic. We are not allowed the privilege of being ordinary people.

Rubygrapefruitwithchilli · 04/04/2023 19:08

X posts: it appears I am way off mark there op. Apologies.

TeenDivided · 04/04/2023 19:08

Is there an issue perhaps that for whatever reason you are often more in agreement with her brother than with you?

I can see why she might not like it when she gives her opinion and you then ask what her husband thinks. Even if you think you are just being collaborative.

IncompleteSenten · 04/04/2023 19:10

If you read through lots of threads in this section you'll find a huge amount of information, opinions and links.

IwantToRetire · 04/04/2023 19:12

Hi ZIEVAR

I think what you have described is very difficult to comment on.

I am not doubting that you are equally interested in the opinions of female relatives as you are of your male relatives.

Can you think of any occassion when they might have felt that, rather than that it just happened that you agreed more with an opinion that happened to be from one of the men in your family.

Do you think you listen more attentively to them. Are you more likely to agree with them.

Looking back, do you think there was a pattern of this.

Have you thought of sitting down with your daughters and asking when or how they felt they had been ignored or their opinions not valued?

ZIEVAR · 04/04/2023 19:27

MMM....thinking here.

OP posts:
ANameChangePresents · 04/04/2023 19:38

Or your daughter could just be raging that she isn't getting her way visa vis PoA. Have you delivered some bitter (from her perspective) news?

ANameChangePresents · 04/04/2023 19:38

(not all accusations are accurate, just because someone had breathed oxygen into them)

NumberTheory · 05/04/2023 07:09

It is not at all uncommon for women to be sexist. We grow up in a sexist society and are just as likely to be socialised into sexist ways of thinking as men are. It can be hard to recognize in yourself and even when you do, still hard to stop yourself from doing it. it’s highly unlikely that anyone has managed to get through life without ever being sexist, even if unintentionally.

Some ways women are frequently sexist that I’ve encountered

  • Believing/trusting a man’s statement/opinion especially on subjects like science, mechanics, politics more than a woman’s.
  • Assuming a man’s work is more important than a woman’s.
-Assuming a woman is responsible for the upkeep of the house, is the default parent, is responsible for hosting at home and for ensuring birthdays, etc. are remembered. -Thinking that women liking sex, especially with non-serious partners, is somehow “bad”, but that it’s just kind of natural for men.

The list goes on. To some extent these are patterns we fall into because our experience makes them seem most likely (e.g. women often are the ones responsible for the upkeep of the home, often are the default parent and this was even more the case decades ago) and as our experience changes our opinions and assumptions might too. But there is more to it than this. For instance, with gendered knowledge, while it’s true that men are more likely to study, say, physics, and there is also a tendency to default to believing/trusting women on “female” things, like childcare, there is still a tendency to see men as more trustworthy - if a man can show him self to be an expert in childcare, he will be trusted and believed above similarly qualified women, whereas a woman who is an expert in physics will have to constantly grapple with having lesser colleagues elevated above her. Our society has running through it a theme that men are better, that they are the apex, and it’s hard not to incorporate that into our lives in unconscious ways.

It’s a social pressure. A collective value. And we probably don’t notice it when we do it. We may not notice, for instance, that when a male friend/colleague/professional does something without smiling and being nice we think nothing of it and when a female friend/colleague/professional does similar we slightly mark her down in our esteem. But studies show us that people do do this. And enough of us do it consistently enough that there is a burden on women to be nice, to smile, to soothe ruffled feathers, to be likable that men do not bear.

It’s impossible for any of us to say whether these sorts of sexist expectations colour your relationships with your children. But there’s certainly a reasonable chance that they do to some extent and if you’re being told this by more than one of them it seems fairly likely. Of course if you favour your son it probably isn’t just because of his sex. One of the reason sexism is so hard to root out is because it often operates as only one lever in complex dynamics and it’s easy to find something else to use as a reason for any particular interaction or exchange.

It’s hard to overcome years of social conditioning, especially when the conditioning is still all around you. I think the most effective method, especially at first, is simply to be open to the possibility and try to be aware of that possibility when you talk with your kids or think about them. Then look back on interactions and see if you can imagine how the interaction would have gone with one of the others. See if you can recognise how their sex might have influenced how you’ve treated them.

ZIEVAR · 05/04/2023 11:27

Thank you. This is an excellent explanation, and very helpful. It was the height of my daughter's upset and anger that completely threw me. It felt as if it had been brewing for years, without anything being said. We are civil again, thank goodness, but I do feel that this has impacted our relationship. She always avoids any type of deeper discussion or confrontation. I am frightened to speak to her about anything other than recipes and gardening. She is the closest to my son, and always has been., which makes it more confusing. He was always an 'easy' child, whereas his sisters always needed my full attention. Even in adulthood., there is always a drama. I don't think he is my favourite, in fact he has had less time and money than the others. What he is , is a relief! Does that make him a favourite?
Anyway thank you again. I shall keep your post and refer to it, until I see a way forward.

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