Great news from Swim England?

[pantsforteaagain]

Swim England has declared in favour of women-only and open swimming categories at the competition level. Recreational levels can be women and trans women (inclusion), but once there is an element of competition it has to be women only (fairness) and never transwomen in women water polo from senior level up (safety). It seems like a good compromise.

They also say the decision was a result of the "strength of feeling displayed via our independent consultation" - hurrah!

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/apr/03/swim-england-announces-transgender-policy-with-open-and-female-categories

Excellent news and a victory for common bleeding sense.

Another gleam of common sense and sunshine. Let’s hope it’s spreading.

It's the right direction but I really don't see why it couldn't be consistent at all levels. Particularly in water polo.

That’s good, but what are recreational levels? Also, does anyone know if this also apply to the children’s races?

So only at elite level? Well what about girls? Young women? Not sure this is that great.

Oh, so where the girls start out, at club meets, there is no ‘fairness’ element. So, Swim England, don’t be surprised if you get fewer female athletes coming through…

So what will happen at grassroots level? Are we going to give medals to male at birth swimmers, but in reality it will be the female swimmers who didn't win and didn't get on the podium who go through to the higher competitive levels as the winners in all but name?

That’s what I’d like to know. I was speaking to a colleague last week who was talking about how much time her daughters spend at swimming club - they’re both under 12. She said how good they were. I asked if she was aware of males winning female competitions and she had no idea! We discussed the infamous Lia T. She was raging that her daughters might invest so much in their racing to have it taken away by a male.
if girls are reluctant to even swim because boys in girls teams, how will they become good enough to compete on the world stage?

"World Swimming banned transgender women from the female category last year shortly after Lia Thomas, who had been a moderate college swimmer as a male competitor in the United States, won an NCAA national college women’s title in 2022."
From the Guardian, that's dangerously close to admitting that transwomen have an advantage over women! A 'moderate' man becoming a champion 'woman'.

"Hawkes said Swim England had decided against a blanket ban. “We understand there’s a nervousness that trans athletes are going to impact cisgender athletes’ opportunities – be that sporting, in terms of progressing through the talent pathway, or commercial."
No, Mr Hawkes, what a disingenuous statement on your part. It's not "trans athletes are going to impact cisgender athletes’ opportunities", it's males robbing females of their rightful opportunities, and it's not nervousness it's sheer fury at the gaslighting unfairness of it all.

It's another brick in this women erasing sporting wall being removed. Mediocre males can stay in the open category. Presumably younger males won't bother competing against young women if they're not going to be rewarded with a place in women's teams.
Small steps in this shitshow.

Nicola Sturgeon introduced us to rapist-gender... is Swim England telling is that there's now grassroots-gender?

Step in the right direction but STILL NOT GOOD ENOUGH. FEMALE SPORTS FOR FEMALE PEOPLE.

Does anyone know if it also applies to Masters elite competitions?

It's a start and good news for already elite level women but agree young girls faced with this at grassroots will do nothing to improve drop out and probably make it worse.

Swim England need to have another think here because what they are saying is that adult, competitive women are now able to avoid these men but they are asking the youngest girls to continue with the stress of having to pretend boys are girls and all the pressure that goes with that.

Many won't they will instead leave and give up on swimming.

I read recreational as non-competitive. We used to have a game of pick up sides water polo at the swimming club after the boring training session when I was a kid. It was fun.

The specific example they give is intra-club races, which will allow self-ID into the women's category. A race is, by definition, competitive.

The self-ID times won't count more widely as qualifying times, so it won't technically block girls who don't win those races from progressing to higher level.competition. But there could still be a psychological dampening effect.

And it blurs the changing room question - does a transwoman who self-IDs into a race also get to self-ID into the changing room, or not?

It could be a lot worse, but I don't see it as step forward. Not even a small one. Because it's a step back from the recent World Swimming rules.

So the girls in effect are being taught to let the male children win and get the ego massaging and recognition, and will then be quietly and tactfully slipped through the back door into the higher levels of competition.

Which patronises the heck out of the male children and trains the female ones that male ego comes before them. And will in fact mean that everyone knows the female children are the real actual winners and their times are the important ones.

I honestly don't see how anyone wins or benefits from this.

Is part of the 'non-competitive' thing because SE don't govern casual swimming? I.e. they can't be responsible for individual pool policies on sessions and changing etc. I think I read something that they had issued guidance that pools should preserve/offer single-sex sessions.

A few years ago Swim England issued guidance to pools stating that tw swimmers must be allowed to wear bikinis or swimsuits regardless of their body shape, but that tm must not be allowed to go bare-chested because of their body shape.

Did they ever retract this interference with casual swimming and individual pool policies?

I don't know much about swimming but how old do people normally move to the elite or senior levels if they have the ability?

I’m a masters swimmer who competes. It sounds as though the restrictions apply to all “licensed” meets. Just about all meets are licensed, including meets for juniors and masters so this won’t just apply to elite events. The only events I’ve come across that aren’t licensed are internal fun Club galas and some entry level inter-club meets.

I still think it’s completely lacking in logic to have separate rules for those “non-competitive races” - a complete sop to the TRAs I imagine - BUT any race at any age level that is relatively serious will be caught by the new rules.

I think there’s more of an issue with the new rules for diving though…

Small steps in the right direction.

@BlueJay2 that's interesting. In most sports the reach of the national organisations is deep. What's going on in diving?

I do have a moment here for the children that are being taught that sex is a choice you can make any time, except not here, here or here. Maybe this will cause some schools and unions to think twice about what they are telling children.

Not about competition but I wish that women only swim sessions would come back to our pools.

So this is throwing down the gauntlet to Swim Scotland and Swim Wales who will have to follow suit in home international competition. Won't they?...