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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rianne Vogels case for unfair dismissal in Norway - equivalent to Maya

22 replies

fromorbit · 28/03/2023 17:54

Rianne Vogels' court case for unfair dismissal for having gender critical views started in Norway today. Maya has been providing support hopefully her experience and knowledge will prove vital in winning the case. She is in Norway right now.

https://twitter.com/MForstater/status/1640736624139968514

Article on the case in Norwegian [use google translate]

https://www.tv2.no/nyheter/innenriks/beskyldes-for-a-ha-spredt-de-mest-fucked-up-transfobiske-ting/15616724/

From the article sounds like Rianne has a chance of winning. The case will last 4 days. If she does it could be a major breakthrough in Norway which has some of the most misogynistic laws in the world restricting discussion of sex and gender. The Norwegian medical authorities have also recently published a report saying there is a lack of evidence for treating "trans" children showing that Norway accepts that "gender ideas" are medically questionable. If these ideas are questionable why are they banning women from talking about them?
https://genderclinicnews.substack.com/p/yes-its-an-experiment?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

Beskyldes for å ha spredt de mest «fucked up transfobiske ting»

Rianne Vogels (43) mener hun har vært utsatt for massiv trakassering og usaklig oppsigelse. Arbeidsgiver Papillon fastholder at oppsigelsen var saklig.

https://www.tv2.no/nyheter/innenriks/beskyldes-for-a-ha-spredt-de-mest-fucked-up-transfobiske-ting/15616724

OP posts:
nepeta · 28/03/2023 18:45

I've wondered if the Nordic countries were so easily captured, initially, because equality of the sexes is advanced further there than in most other places so that more women couldn't really see what the consequences might be for them, having become somewhat accustomed to seeing female representation everywhere (which may look like women's concerns are being heard).

Cailin66 · 28/03/2023 21:14

Wow isn’t Maya amazing, helping another brace women fight this. Norway is a pretty sensible country, so hopefully it will work out for Rianne.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 28/03/2023 23:00

the questionable things you aren't allowed to question (if you're a woman)

Justme56 · 09/05/2023 10:15

I gather that Rianne has won her case. 🎉

DerekFaker · 09/05/2023 10:32

She has indeed!

Rianne Vogels case for unfair dismissal in Norway - equivalent to Maya
IcakethereforeIam · 09/05/2023 10:51

Brilliant, is it settled? Does anyone know if there might be an appeal?

Brisland · 09/05/2023 10:52

Excellent!

turbonerd · 09/05/2023 11:28

We are allowed to express critical thoughts in the trans-debate!
Huzzah.

Will translate just a few bits:

Her dismissal was unlawful (usaklig) and she is getting recompensated to the tune of roughly £ 60 000.

Her former employer has 30 days to appeal since Hordaland Tingrett announced the verdict. The ruling is in limbo until then.
The ruling states that she has expressed herself factually and that statements of facts are not transphobic
It is a victory for freedom of speech and rational debate, and hopefully will bring an end to harassment of people stating facts in the public debate.

There was no conflict of loyalty in and her dismissal was therefore unlawful (not entirely sure that is the right Word, I am no good at legalese)

turbonerd · 09/05/2023 11:30

And another thing;
The sports-issue seem to have riled people in Norway. Fairness is extremely important and both swimming and cycling have been discussed fairly widely. People are NOT amused and find it unfair and annoying.

nauticant · 09/05/2023 11:31

Pure machine translation with no editing:

Rianne Vogels won - the dismissal was unfair Hordaland District Court believes Rianne Vogels can express herself critically in the trans debate. The court believes that her dismissal was unfair and she is awarded compensation of NOK 60,000.

A victory for freedom of expression as the judgment appears, says lawyer Birthe Eriksen to TV 2. She points out that the judgment is not yet legally binding. TV 2 has not received an answer to whether the other party will appeal. Recently, there has been an intense debate related to the trans movement. Many have watched with great excitement until the verdict in what is referred to as a matter of principle and importance and which is also part of the whole so-called "trans debate". Big problem on the map - I am happy to have been successful. The trial has put a bigger problem on the map, says Rianne Vogels to TV 2. She points out that in both Norway and other countries there has been a conceptual shift regarding gender, legislative changes and clinical treatment. - Many, even professionals, have been reluctant to discuss this, says Rianne Vogels. She sued her employer Papillon after she was fired for speaking out critically in the trans debate. Harassing letter WON: Rianne Vogels won with her lawsuit against employer Papillion. Photo: Geir Johnny Huneide / TV 2 WON: Rianne Vogels won with her lawsuit against employer Papillion. Photo: Geir Johnny Huneide / TV 2 - There now seems to be greater understanding that "no debate" and harassing letters to employers should be on the way out as gagging techniques, says Vogels to TV 2. Vogel's employer was tipped off by an unknown person who said in an e-mail that Vogels had spoken out negatively in the trans debate and that she came across as transphobic. - This case has become much bigger than a normal labor court case, says Vogels. Relieved lawyer - Rianne Vogels is of course both relieved and happy to have fully won this demanding and important case that she has been involved in for so long, says lawyer Birthe Eriksen to TV 2. Eriksen believes it is important that Vogels has received the court's approval that her statements are not transphobic and that these are generally unproblematic for an employee to make. - You have pointed to freedom of expression? - We are happy for the signals that this judgment sends and that her statements are not perceived as transphobic, Eriksen clarifies. Factual statements In the judgment, the court points out that it is relevant to look at some of the statements that can be perceived as the most critical of trans people. "The court will note that most statements that Vogels has made, directly or indirectly, in the debate about gender identity, must be considered factual." The court further concludes that it does not find "that the statements made by Vogels on Twitter are transphobic." The court believes that the statements made by Vogels on Twitter will, in principle, be well within the framework of freedom of expression. The statements will generally be unproblematic for most employers, and will not constitute a breach of the duty of loyalty towards the employer. Ordered to cover legal costs Employer Papillon is then ordered to pay Vogels' legal costs of NOK 537,514. Overall, it is the court's assessment that it did not appear clear to Vogels that her statements on Twitter were contrary to Papillon's interests, and could be negative for the organisation's work. But the court finds that she should understand that her statements about gender identity could have meaning for Papillon, and that Papillon could easily be identified with her own opinions. In such a context, Vogels should have been more careful with how she expressed herself on Twitter. No breach of duty of loyalty The court believes that there is no breach of the duty of loyalty, and that the dismissal was therefore not factually justified. The court considers dismissal a disproportionate reaction. In the judgment, it is determined that "the statements were problematic for Papillon, but not of such a nature that there was no room for dialogue about future behaviour." The court considers the dismissal to be invalid, cf. the Working Environment Act § 15-12 first paragraph. TV 2 has not succeeded in getting a comment from the other party's lawyer, Ida Kristin Hollund Brunborg at Simonsen & Vogt. - We are considering the verdict now and will come back, says lawyer Trine Lise Fromreide at the same law office. Got fired Rianne Vogels was fired by her employer Papillon, after speaking out critically in the so-called trans debate. Following this, Vogels sued his former employer for unfair dismissal. FIRST DAY: Rianne Vogels, lawyer Birthe Eriksen and solicitor Nina Sørensen greet each other during the first day of court. Photo: Geir Johnny Huneide / TV 2 FIRST DAY: Rianne Vogels, lawyer Birthe Eriksen and solicitor Nina Sørensen greet each other during the first day of court. Photo: Geir Johnny Huneide / TV 2 It was seen as a historically important and highly principled trial. For the first time, the court must weigh different considerations against each other.

IcakethereforeIam · 09/05/2023 11:32

Thank you @turbonerd I have very, very low tolerance for legalese. So, 30 days to appeal. Let's see what they do.

Circumferences · 09/05/2023 11:32

When I open the link there was an option to click read in English- I use Chrome browser.

The article is very long but shall I post some highlights?

Circumferences · 09/05/2023 11:34

TV2- Rianne Vogels won - the dismissal was unfair.

Hordaland District Court believes Rianne Vogels can express herself critically in the trans debate. The court believes that her dismissal was unfair and she is awarded compensation of NOK 60,000.

She points out that the judgment is not yet legally binding. TV2 has not received an answer to whether the other party will appeal.

The court believes that the statements made by Vogels on Twitter will, in principle, be well within the framework of freedom of expression. The statements will generally be unproblematic for most employers, and will not constitute a breach of the duty of loyalty towards the employer.
Ordered to cover legal costsEmployer Papillon is then ordered to pay Vogels' legal costs.

Circumferences · 09/05/2023 11:37

Oh, have just seen some much faster typists above!

DerekFaker · 09/05/2023 11:47

Thank you both, much appreciated!

turbonerd · 09/05/2023 11:50

The auto-translate is pretty good.
Though I think the sum was NOK 600 000 which is a bit less than £ 60 000, especially now the krone is so weak

PriOn1 · 09/05/2023 11:55

turbonerd · 09/05/2023 11:28

We are allowed to express critical thoughts in the trans-debate!
Huzzah.

Will translate just a few bits:

Her dismissal was unlawful (usaklig) and she is getting recompensated to the tune of roughly £ 60 000.

Her former employer has 30 days to appeal since Hordaland Tingrett announced the verdict. The ruling is in limbo until then.
The ruling states that she has expressed herself factually and that statements of facts are not transphobic
It is a victory for freedom of speech and rational debate, and hopefully will bring an end to harassment of people stating facts in the public debate.

There was no conflict of loyalty in and her dismissal was therefore unlawful (not entirely sure that is the right Word, I am no good at legalese)

60,000 NOK is actually only just over £4,500 at the current exchange rate. She got her legal fees back, which were ten times as much as that, but it does not remotely recompense her for losing her job.

I live in Norway and have gradually discovered that, despite its reputation, women’s rights here are not as well protected as you might expect and there is still considerable inequality, particularly when it comes to pensions, reflecting the fact that women still earn less on average over their working life.

If you chose at any point to be a SAHM, you can expect your pension to stop building over that period. For following wives of immigrants, the situation is even worse as it’s difficult to get work, and on divorce, you are not entitled to any of your husbands pension.

DerekFaker · 09/05/2023 12:09

It doesn't surprise me at all that in countries embracing gender ideology, women are still being treated like second class citizens.

This is interesting from Anya Palmer:

Rianne Vogels case for unfair dismissal in Norway - equivalent to Maya
turbonerd · 09/05/2023 12:31

PriOn1 · 09/05/2023 11:55

60,000 NOK is actually only just over £4,500 at the current exchange rate. She got her legal fees back, which were ten times as much as that, but it does not remotely recompense her for losing her job.

I live in Norway and have gradually discovered that, despite its reputation, women’s rights here are not as well protected as you might expect and there is still considerable inequality, particularly when it comes to pensions, reflecting the fact that women still earn less on average over their working life.

If you chose at any point to be a SAHM, you can expect your pension to stop building over that period. For following wives of immigrants, the situation is even worse as it’s difficult to get work, and on divorce, you are not entitled to any of your husbands pension.

Yes, my apologies. I read one zero too many!
That is a rather disappointing sum. It does not cover lost earnings at all! At her paylevel I would expect that is just one month of wages.

I have been surprised at some of my encounters with the law in Norway. Especially around women’s situations after separating after dv. Shockingly bad, though better now than 10 years ago.
In general, Women do not seem to have the strong position I used to assume we had.
We still have a better situation than the UK, with subsidised childcare, fairly generous Parental leave, fairly good provisions when you have a child with special needs etc. Strong labourer rights and good salaries. Egalitarian thinking is still going strong as this years salary negotiations shows.

I was surpised though at the free reigns it seems FRI has been given, in stealth mode mind you. Most of this crap has been flying under the radar. And most people just want everyone to have a good life, regardless. I know it took me long enough to question why the T (and the Q etc) were tagged onto the LGB.
Now that it is more out in the Open people are reacting a lot more to the outrageous language-policing, the unfairness in sports, and the physical danger to young people wanting hormones and surgery.

I am so glad this was the outcome of the court case. And that Papillon won’t appeal.
Free speech at almost any cost is highly valued still.

turbonerd · 09/05/2023 12:32
  • I HOPE Papillon won’t appeal. oh, for an Edit button
AmbleInAnnBoleyn · 09/05/2023 14:41

Thank you for the update and translations. Well done Rianne - and Maya.

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