Which is the best country for women?

[RosaBonheur]

Something I've been pondering lately.

Is there a country anywhere in the world that really gets it right for women?

Anywhere that allows biologically male people into women's spaces or has self ID is putting women at risk and prioritising those peoples gender identities over women's right to have their own spaces and sports. But this is largely happening in rich, developed countries with good human rights records where the standard of living is high. I used to think of countries like Norway, Canada and New Zealand as being desirable places to live, but now...not so much.

On the other hand, in countries which haven't adopted this position, women's rights are often lagging behind in the traditional way. I'm not even talking about places like Afghanistan or Iran or Saudi Arabia, which clearly aren't good places to be a woman, but perhaps places like Poland and Malta and certain US states, where women's reproductive rights aren't respected.

Is anywhere getting it right? Is there a country anywhere in the world that was already a good place to be a woman and is managing to get it right on this particular issue by respecting trans people's human rights without taking anything away from women and girls?

Singapore.

You can go jogging at midnight, in Lycra, with headphones on, do yoga, chill out in the park in the dark. you will feel perfectly safe.

why? They aren’t a liberal society where the needs of the criminal, irrespective of their upbringing or disadvantages, are taken into account - and the penalties are severe, upto an including the death sentance. As a result, crime outside of the home is very very low.

I don’t know about DV there though - how it’s handled.

Everyone works to some extent - childcare is a family deal from GP to brothers and sisters being involved.

I second Singapore actually, no not liberal or progressive but much safer. I've spent a lot of time in different countries as a single woman, and went back to Singapore many times although never lived there, I felt safe, never had any issues at any time of the night or day. I mean nothing, not even a cheeky wolf whistle. Had the most trouble travelling/living alone in Malaysia.

I think it's about more than just safety though, which I agree is important. That said, I'd rather live in a country where women are safe because men are taught to respect women, rather than because if you get caught committing a serious crime the government will have you executed.

Perhaps it's naive of me, but I don't agree with the death penalty because I think it runs contrary to basic human rights. Once you decide that criminals don't deserve human rights, it's a slippery slope. So my instinct is more to trust countries which uphold the basic human rights in, say, the European Convention on Human Rights, or the same ones in the case of non-European countries. But these also seem to be the same countries which have recently decided that if you are trans, accessing spaces and services for the opposite sex is a basic human right.

Disturbingly, I get the impression that England is one of the better countries in the world on this atm 🙄

Yes, as opposed to Scotland and Wales, regrettably.

it’s up to us to try and keep it this way.

Probably here in England. I imagine Singapore to be lovely for wealthier women but maybe not so great for poorer women?

Singapore is no good if you're a lesbian.

I don't know, maybe the poor Singaporeans serve the rich? Anyway I assume even the poor women in Singapore can go outside without being raped or sexually assaulted . I didn't have that being upper middle class in NYC; Central Park was too dangerous...

"Singapore"

Can't agree that the traditional east Asian collectivist mentality is conducive to women's rights, which really requires a liberal Western appreciation of the value of individual human lives.

They're free and easy with the death penalty because human lives count for little relative to the "health of the hive". Authoritarian patriarchies of that kind are rarely willing to grant women (or anyone) much meaningful autonomy in practice.

I don't think there are any countries in the world in which women have the full blend of rights, safeguards and freedoms they require. Western societies were heading in that direction, falteringly, but are now in danger of throwing any progress away in the name of pandering to a handful of misfit men.

Poor women migrants in Singapore until very recently couldn't go our at all without permission from their employers.

I think England is leading the backlash against self ID at the moment and I'm really glad to see that.

But a good place for women? I'm not so sure. Not yet.

On the trans issue alone, we still have male sex offenders in women's prisons. We still don't have single sex rape crisis support for women who need it. Stonewall still has the last word on whether an employer is doing the right things for diversity or not. And we still don't have a single political party on the left or centre left which is willing to prioritise women.

Most of the bad stuff that is currently happening or has already happened has happened on the Tories' watch. And I think the Tories are only waking up to it now as a voting issue which may help stop women from voting for other parties if the Tories say enough to convince them that they are the best party for women. They still have people like Caroline Noakes and Maria Miller and Penny Mordaunt and Theresa May and Crispin Blunt. (Incidentally, why the fuck is it mostly women who seem so keen to throw women and girls under a bus on this? Baffling.)

And apart from the trans issue, there are other areas where the UK as a whole isn't great for women, such as affordable childcare and women's health, especially maternity and postnatal care.

One of the most liberal countries for abortion rights though, free contraception etc. There's a lot of good stuff for women in the UK/England, but a lot of bad at the moment too.

I'm in France at the moment and it's really difficult to compare the two. In theory I think France has more liberal trans rights laws than the UK. But in practice I don't really see it. There are fewer single sex spaces anyway (which I think is probably a bad thing). I suspect trans people just stay under the radar a lot more here because they know France is a much more socially conservative country and they know that if they are too visible and too demanding it is likely to end badly for them. There are still people who will publicly protest against same sex marriage, abortion and IVF (all of which are obviously legal) here.

I don't think there are any countries in the world in which women have the full blend of rights, safeguards and freedoms they require. Western societies were heading in that direction, falteringly, but are now in danger of throwing any progress away in the name of pandering to a handful of misfit men.

This is my feeling as well, which is why I'm wondering whether there are countries I've missed, countries which aren't on my radar but which are quietly getting it right for women.

Iceland maybe? They have the lowest pay gap which might be an indicator of how women are valued.

gods that's horrible, a form of slavery!....I hope migrants have laws now ensuring basic rights.

I would suggest France- esp if you're a woman who wants to return to work after DCs.

They have good healthcare, childcare, pensions, social security, abortion access.

Not sure about women in positions of power there?

Education seems equal?

Don't know about the equal pay gap.

I think you need to be clear what your measurements are.

I'd suggest:

Life expectancy
Maternal mortality and morbidity
Abortion
Equal pay
Equal education
Lesbian rights
Domestic abuse stats
Rape rates and convictions
Proportion of women in politics and on boards
Female poverty
Laws on prostitution
Pornification of society

I know Iceland has a great reputation for women's rights but I was wondering how transgender people fit into that.

I haven't quite managed to work it out from some basic Googling, but from what I understand their process of gender recognition seems to be fairly similar to what it is in the UK currently. They used to have pretty robust rules about access to hormones and surgery but it seems that those have been substantially relaxed in the last few years, which doesn't have much impact on women but increases the risk for children and young people with gender identity issues.

This article aimed at transgender tourists seems to suggest that trans people are allowed to use single sex spaces for the opposite sex but also that there are plenty of third and gender neutral spaces as well which most of them tend to use instead. It also mentions the low crime rate in Iceland, which could suggest that many of the issues we experience in countries with a higher crime rate simply don't crop up as often.

https://www.pinkiceland.is/post/trans-friendly-iceland

It sounds pretty good but I wonder how much of this could really be adopted in countries like the UK.

Iceland has a sex trafficking problem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Iceland

So, as someone who lives in France, I feel it is more socially conservative and I have come across some casual sexism here which I think would be less likely to happen in the UK.

For example, when my husband and I got a mortgage, he was named on all the paperwork as the borrower and described as his actual name, whereas I was described as the unnamed co-borrower. I was furious because I was the one who had applied for the mortgage, I was a current client of the bank and he wasn't, and I am the higher earner, but I was told, "this is France, madame".

It is definitely more socially conservative here and even among the young, liberal people I know, people will, for example, quite happily say they don't agree with gay marriage because France is a Catholic country, when France is actually supposed to be a secular country and those kinds of attitudes just wouldn't wash in the same social circles in the UK. I also notice that people use a lot of casually offensive language about minority groups which doesn't seem to bother people here but would be an absolute no-no in the UK.

I am straight and white and affluent and the "right kind of immigrant". As a British immigrant who does not hold French citizenship, I am quite sure people are more welcoming towards me than they are towards women of north African origin who were born here and have been citizens all their lives. I've also never had to access rape crisis services, or report domestic violence, and I'm not a lesbian. So I don't think I can really speak for all women.

That said, from my own personal experience things do seem pretty good here for women. Even in old fashioned male dominated industries like the one I work in, there are women in positions of power and they are respected. I do not think I am underpaid compared to my male colleagues at the same level; in fact, I believe I am actually paid more due to my unusual skill set and the fact that I would be more difficult to replace.

The legal abortion limit is much shorter - it was recently increased to 14 weeks from 12 weeks - but overall, women's healthcare is excellent here.

Maternity leave is short, and although you can extend it by taking parental leave which is remunerated at €400 a month, in practice most women don't, and if you are well paid, that represents a huge drop in your income. There certainly isn't a cultural expectation that women will stay off work for a year and be financially dependent on their partners. If anything it's the opposite; I am currently on maternity leave and will manage to take 8 months off, which is considered very long. The accessibility and affordability of high quality childcare from babies from 10 weeks to 3 years old - when school starts - is a real plus point. You don't have to use it, but it is available, you pay according to your means, and there aren't women in France who are stuck being SAHMs when they don't want to be because they can't afford childcare. If your income is low you pay next to nothing for childcare.

So yes, overall I think it is pretty good. Not perfect, but better than most places I think.

I've worked for Sinagorean companies and visited as a working holiday. I loved the place and thought it very female friendly. I felt safe going out and it seemed a very warm, friendly place. However it is an authoritarian country and you're only fine if you're fine with that which to be fair many seem to be. Also I was a white Englishwoman visiting so I am already among the privileged. No idea what it's like for the Indian community there especially for Indian women.

I wouldn't like to live in an authoritarian country but I can understand why a low crime rate especially anti-social behaviour and better safety is attractive. The thing you need to ask though about such places is how fair are the laws? How just is the criminal justice system?

I've heard Singapore isn't officially gay friendly but it is unofficially. That's what I've heard. Even so, if it's not offically okay to be gay then that's a big red flag.

I think here in the UK we're doing pretty well. I've heard some American women say they envy us our activism and our fightback against losing our rights. Some say that's because of our history of collectivism, the Labour Party and trades unionism. But it takes individual as well as collective action to fight for our rights and I've always thought Americans were pretty good at that especially using their legal system to protect their rights. We may well see some interesting court actions in the not too distant future and class actions so maybe the USA will lead the way?

Yup - @Aphrathestorm, as the OP indicates, your list doesn’t include equality of opportunity and access to services for all races. Otherwise good!

It may well be true that you personally don't get paid less than the men but France has a pretty shit gender pay gap - 15.4%. UK is around 9%, so significantly better.

There are also really high rates of depression among French women.

Sorry, genuinely not meaning to pick your post apart it's a really interesting question. I have no idea what the answer is but France I don't think would rank highly for me.

Is that so? I find that really surprising. I always thought that shorter maternity leave and women not taking years off to raise children should logically lead to a smaller pay gap in France.

Well it's not Wales,thanks to Dickford and his merry band of panderers.

Terf Island. It's not perfect but I suspect it's better than anywhere else. It's worth defending.

What about Sweden?