Canadian athlete silenced by own team

[MissLucyEyelesbarrow]

(Apologies if there is another thread on this - couldn't see one)

This is a gob-smacking story, which illustrates why today's World Athletics decision is so important.

In the 2016 Olympics women's 800m, all three medals went to athletes who are biologically male. The true winner, Canada's Melissa Bishop, was pushed into 4th place.

It has now emerged that the Canadian team management silenced the head coach by threatening a lifelong ban.

So Canada prioritised the feelings of male cheats over its own athlete and a gold medal. Literally Olympic level dick-pandering.

How was this not a major news story at the time? Those three ‘winners’ are clearly male. Absolutely shocking that the inclusion of males in a female competition has cost three women their rightful awards and all the kudos that would’ve gone with it.

Because stunning and brave, I assume. The BBC probably reported it as a good news story - they're always keen for us to enjoy our erasure.

Well, Canada, innit?

I remember talking about this at the time and the response was it was racism. It was very, very effective at shutting down concerns.

Because stunning and brave, I assume. The BBC probably reported it as a good news story - they're always keen for us to enjoy our erasure.

I'm sure Canada's CBC did (I'm Canadian) - they practically foam at the mouth in excitement to show how "progressive" they are about this stuff. Once you see the manipulation in how that they omit certain stories/information and highlight other types of stories/information...you can't unsee it.

DSD male athletes have consistently been reported in the press female. Most people have no idea they are biologically male. Then you throw in accusations of racism - black women not fitting the 'white woman' mould - and people quickly shut up.

How was this not a major news story at the time? Those three ‘winners’ are clearly male.

Partly it's just no-one could really believe that they would be letting males in to compete with women.

People want to believe that the authorities aren't that stupid, and are prepared to doubt themselves.

Which is why you still see people on every single Twitter thread insisting that Semenya isn't male. Far easier to believe that the athletics authorities are doing the right thing and people on the net are misinformed bigots than that they are letting someone with male physiology - multiple people! - win female events.

I only know about Caster Semenya (out of those three), but it's not quite as cut and dried as "clearly male" if they were recorded as female at birth and only realised they were male when older.

I do think DSDs are a more complicated case than people obviously male from birth trying to compete in women's sports.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48157271
Lynsey Sharp who should have won bronze at Rio received death threats and was called whiny for complaining about this.

That is outrageous. They should have their medals revoked. The poor female athletes.

The fact that this wasn't allowed to be discussed and athletics didn't bother actually dealing with the issue with consideration to women is obviously outrageous.

I believe all three on that podium have DSD? So the rules about their participation are not the same as the rules about the participation of males without DSD in women's categories?

Actually it was quite a high profile story, though admittedly not as high profile as it should have been . Lynsey Sharp, who is a Uk runner, should have won the bronze medal as she came third of the natal women runners.

Caster is a male who is choosing to cheat, by competing against women. Her sex would have been obvious at puberty, if not before. It is unfortunate if she was unaware of her true sex until that point, but I don't see why it gives her a free pass to cheat women out of their medals.

@nepeta The old rules required DSD athletes to lower testosterone levels if they wanted to compete in distances between 400 and 1 mile. All other distances were allowed. The new rules require lower testosterone levels (2.5 n/mol down from 5) and to be maintained for two years before competing in any distance.

I believe the three DSD athletes from Rio have all refused to lower their testosterone levels, although Margaret Wambui has called for a third category for DSD athletes.

Caster Semenya was registered female at birth and raised a female. She had no male genitals visible at birth.
By the athletics rules she can run as a woman. Then they brought in the testosterone rules which meant she couldn't.

Hers is a very different case from Lia Thomas

it's not quite as cut and dried as "clearly male" if they were recorded as female at birth and only realised they were male when older.

It should be cut-and-dried though, at least in the case of such unambiguously male-advantage DSDs as 5-ARD.

If there can be a "strict liability" rule on banned substances, there's absolutely no reason you can't have a "strict liability" rule on being the wrong sex.

The thing about athletes with DSD is that there are no situations where their DSD diagnosis comes as a complete surprise to anyone as they step onto the podium to collect a medal. DSD athletes are identified very early on by national teams.

These days, even in poor but medal hungry countries genetic testing is readily available ( genetic confirmation shows that most DSD people are very clearly genetically one sex or the other, usually male, and that the hormonal side of puberty happens even if the external genitalia are unclear) to the extent that many people believe that some athletic associations actively seek out DSD athletes to nurture, since it is more cost effective to produce a DSD medal winner who is genetically male and can beat natal women , than to set up national training centres and expensive coaching programmes to seek out and encourage female athletes in the hope you will produce a winner.

Well that is actually very murky. It's not at all clear that she was brought up as a female. Nor is it clear what her family knew about her condition - people with her DSD may have genitals that look male or female, so they may or may not have known.

However, even if we accept that people thought she was female when prepubescent, her sex would have become evident at puberty. There is no way her coaches didn't know - the minute she started international competitions, other countries were flagging it up.

Why does the fact that there might have been a mistake about her sex at birth give her a free pass to cheat now? If someone was mistakenly diagnosed with a disability at birth, but then found not to have it, would it be fair for them to compete in the paralympics?

Caster Semenya was registered female at birth and raised a female.

On the contrary - I don't believe she was registered at birth at all (I believe the female registration occurred when necessary to compete), and evidence is far from clear about being "raised as a female".

Certainly I recall one sports school teacher on record as having being surprised to find out Semenya "was a girl", having coached them in a male football team. (Is my memory faulty?)

People do say what you just said, but never with any evidence for Semenya, as far as I can tell - it's just an attempt to justify why a hypothetical DSD case might be different in general, but no evidence it applies in Semenya's case.

There's enough doubt to make it quite likely that Semenya was discovered to be male some unknown point during childhood, "came out" as really being male, and was treated as such during later school years, then reverted to a claim of being female to compete in athletics.

To some extent the total lack of any evidence either way suggests that this is the case - if there was any evidence of having lived "as female" prior to competition, surely it would have been presented.

(And I don't actually recall if we've ever seen evidence Semenya was EVER regarded as female, even as an infant. It may just be a back-construction as something that's supposed to be plausible due to the DSD)

What I am saying is that 'legally' she is a woman. This meant that the testosterone rulings came in which prevented her running - not her sex.

Legal status in one's home country has never been a factor - not surprisingly, as there would be mass cheating if you could just register males as females. When Caster first started competing, sex was generally taken on trust, unless challenged. Basically, she was treated as female because South Africa put her forward as female.

It's worth noting that members of the South African athletics establishment later admitted to having covertly sex-tested Caster as a teen (she did not know), and some members were opposed to entering her in international competitions because they knew her sex would be challenged. I don't blame Caster for any of this - she was exploited by South African Athletics. I do blame her for choosing to cheat as a mature adult.

What I am saying is that 'legally' she is a woman. This meant that the testosterone rulings came in which prevented her running - not her sex.

The chain of events goes back a bit further - Semenya would have originally been banned due to sex, with there being a blanket XY chromosome ban.

Semenya and the other 5-ARD athletes became eligible and sought by scouts when that was suspended following legal challenge from Dutee Chand, IIRC.

I'm not a 100% expert here, but basically Semenya's eligibility to compete only occurred in a small, misguided window of unrestricted XY DSDs.

Legal status in one's home country has never been a factor - not surprisingly, as there would be mass cheating if you could just register males as females.

Actually, it is a factor in the current DSD rules. To be covered by the DSD rules (as opposed to the normal ones), you have to both have the DSD in question, and be legally female in your home country.

Basically for the cases where they've allowed a carve out for "special" males to be included in the female category - either trans or DSD - being legally female is an minimum requirement before they'll consider giving you the special pass under the other rules.

It's the female "identity" claim that is the underlying basis for them to considering giving males the "special" treatment, rather than just applying normal male rules.

Actually, it is a factor in the current DSD rules. To be covered by the DSD rules (as opposed to the normal ones), you have to both have the DSD in question, and be legally female in your home country

Ah sorry, yes I meant at the stage where Caster was first being entered in international competitions, not after she had being identified as having a DSD.

There has never been any requirement to demonstrate that you are regarded as legally female/male in your own country as a general entrant to international competition, AFAIK. It was probably just taken as read.