Faux Feminism or something else?

[QuestioningFeminism]

I've been a very strong supporter of feminism for years as the survivor of violence against women and girls. However something seems to have shifted in society recently and it really has me questioning if I fit into any kind of modern day feminism anymore.

I have seen the following general ideas pushed by women online claiming to be feminists recently that have led me to start questioning.

-Marriage has no value and only benefits men. Women who get married are stupid and oppresing themselves.

-Relationships that aren't LGBT+ are antifeminist.

-Stay at home mothers are oppresing themselves and should be mocked as "tradwives".

-The only relationships that have value are friendships.

-Having children is a laughable waste of time for women and should be avoided at all costs. Motherhood is the ultimate form of oppression against women and anyone who chooses Motherhood is setting herself up for failure.

-Romance and families in general are antifeminist

-Everyone is happier single and will always be that way. Casual sex is the only option that will lead to true happiness and sexual freedom.

-Heterosexual relationships are dangerous/problematic and therefore should be avoided. If a woman is stupid enough to sign herself onto one, anything bad that happens to her after she deserves because everyone knows that men are dangerous by default.

The people claiming these things honestly don't seem like trolls. They really seem to believe them. It seems we've pushed the idea that women are vulnerable and men are bad so hard that we've possibly given heterosexual/bisexual women the idea that life in the very general sense should be avoided.

The idea that friendship is the only valuable relationship worries me. Yes friendship is incredibly valuable but what happens when your friends get busy with their own lives? I myself went through a period of quiet when a few of my friend got married and had children. If it wasn't for my own family I probably would have been quite lost. I can only hope these users were very young and naive.

There also seems to be a notion that the only way to find true happiness is to be single for the rest of your life.

But I don't know. I feel quite saddened by these attitudes. I've seen quite a few mumsneters getting attacked by users with these ideas. Specifically the more "traditional" type women. Married, mothers, and stay at home mothers and housewives particularly seem to be targeted.

One thread I saw actually disturbed me as it was a woman who said she always wanted to be a stay at home mother. She was mocked viciously and one user even went so far as to tell her her husband works definitely divorce her if she did this and she would deserve it.

I thought the whole idea was giving women choices but now it seems we have simply changed what choices are socially acceptable rather than giving women more choices.

I don't know. It all kind of makes me want to stop calling myself a feminist if this is what feminism stands for. If falling in love getting married (even with the risks) and having children which is in my opinion very natural and a part of life, are all considered anti feminists then I don't really want to be a part of that.

In my personal view it feels a bit like escapism and an extreme fear of failure to me.

Maybe I'm becoming an old fashioned hag. But I can live with that I guess.

A lot of this sounds like a group of misguided students engaging in discourse on tik-tok while on a bad acid trip. Where to even begin. If you've spent any significant amount of time reading the works of feminists across the board or even just reflecting on the life experiences of yourself and other women you know then you'd recognise most of this for what it is, half-baked bad viral takes.

I never really thought of it that way before. Perhaps it is time I read up on it a bit. I'm not really sure where to start though.

@YouAreNotBatman you must have a very lose definition of what a troll is. 🤨

I won't give up on feminism. I think I am frustrated at the moment with how some have such a, IMHO, very sad and dehumanizing perspective of feminism. But perhaps I need to give it a proper chance.

I won't give up on feminism. I think I am frustrated at the moment with how some have such a, IMHO, very sad and dehumanizing perspective of feminism. But perhaps I need to give it a proper chance.

Again, no idea where you hang out, but if you are serious (doubtfull, since you refuse to show even general direction of where you have read this stuff) you have nothing to worry about.
All the feminist I’ve met / places I’ve tried to find other feminist worship men.
So, you are in like-minded company, wherever you go.
All of them want to still date men, make excuses for them, insist they got ’a good one’, mothers are put on high on the pedestal (single, childfree women are forgotten and look down on), they bend over backwards to explain why they took their husbands name, many have said that of course friendships take a backseat when you have husband and kids.

Like it’s so conservative, I’ve often have to check where I actually am.
I’ve constantly suprised of how not-feminist, most feminist are.
And like I said, all of your bullet-points are straight from anti-feminists rhetorics, I’m suprised so many people fell for your trap🤔, it’s so obvious.

But yes @QuestioningFeminism , if you want to keep centering men, most feminist absolutely agree with you.
They really aren’t that revolutionary, sadly.

Tiktok feminism

This is a slightly different thing, but there was a whole thing on Twitter/tiktok about whether or not Mr Beast was a bad/good person (because he gives money to people but does it for clicks...) What makes a person "good" and whether virtue is still virtuous if its done for selfish reasons is a really deep philosophical question that has been argued for millenia. And it relevant to today because there is an issue with people filming themselves giving stuff to homeless people and the recipient having to look grateful etc.

But for some reason when played out on social media it just becomes the most stupid discussion ever. With not only the most extreme but also the dumbest interpretations of the issue getting the most attention. Its not just feminism/women's issues - Tiktok can turn any interesting and complicated ethical/philosophical question into an idiotic mess.

So I wouldn't look on those sites for nuanced discussion full stop. Real life discussions with real people, reading or failing that old fashioned web 1.0 type discussion forums tend to be less frustrating even if you disagree with all the points made.

And as a more general rule - if I allowed myself to feel saddened by every bad/poorly thought through take on TikTok I would be in a constant state of soul crushing depression

Germaine Greer has a lot to answer for!

I think some of those ideas originated from her.

I don't subscribe to a particular flavour of feminism, I'm a woman who perceives and experiences challenges due to my sex.
I don't live in Pakistan, Afghanistan or one of the myriad places in the world where woman are struggling to survive.
Nevertheless my opportunities and expectations are limited by my sex, by the programming I receive because of my sex and I want to change that.

We may disagree on particulars but we have the same aims; equality of opportunity, safety to live our lives, division of labour that doesn't disadvantage us.
I grew up with brothers, I have sons. Men are not my enemy.

The OP had a sense (to me) of asking for some sort of explanation of different points of view about what feminism should be. In seemed to highlight infighting amongst women who should be working together, it could be construed as criticism or shit stirring. There are many people whose words are more concise and eloquent than mine but they can still be open to wilful misinterpretation.

I have learnt and been impressed by so many posts on this site, they open my eyes to some phenomenal women. But even they have their detractors. We will never agree on everything.

Really? What's "astute" about simply dismissing someone as "thick'

I don't understand this post either.

Considering it’s all spell out there, I for the life of me can’t imagine why or what you have trouble to understand.

Your post is not clear. I'm not the only poster who said they didn't understand it.

Really? What's "astute" about simply dismissing someone as "thick'

"I'd say the people youve seen posting have got confused between queer theory and feminism." = Astute

"Easy mistake to make if you're a bit thick" = To the point.

I think many young women just entering adulthood, having lived young lives to this point where they're told they can do anything they want, see an exciting world full of opportunity ahead of them.

So they think they don't need feminism. Let them live a lifetime and see where they end up. My view is, there'll be (1) a constant chip chip chip away at their initial rosy worldview as they notice little things that reveal the underlying sexism, and (2) certain big events in their lives like having children and seeing opportunities dry up, or god forbid they or a close friend gets assaulted and the male aggressor gets off scot-free...

Or maybe not. Maybe these young women really do live in a world now where everything is fine and feminism will die because it's not needed any more. As long as there's male aggression, entitlement, cronyism and the sex trade (etc etc) though I doubt it.

Okey, difficult to help because all you’ve said is curt ’I don’t understan’, so what do you not understand from my very clear post?

certain big events in their lives like having children

Or being childfree and seeing all the misogyny when told your own choice don’t matter and women are meant to bore children, otherwise they are useless. And all the rest condescending comments and seeing how childree women are treated like a secong class citizens compared to women who have kids.

Your post isn’t at all clear, it’s full of typos and tense changes.

Let’s move on now.
I can’t help at this point, could have happily do that if said what the actual problem is.
It was good stuff.

No it isn't "to the point". It's just rude.

No it isn't "to the point". It's just rude.

And I disagree.

Queer Theory bollocks loves to misattribute beliefs to “feminism.” Judith a butler can go boil her head.

OP, there are many studies showing our current setup benefit men. Married men live longer healthier happier lives than single men. Boys do better in mixed sex schools than single schools.

Conversely single women live longer, healthier happier lives than married women and girls thrive in single sex schools compared with mixed sex.

So there is a valid feminist critique of “what can we do about that,” but that’s not the same as saying marriage is bad, don’t have children, burn it all to the ground.

Those views are not new - they were around in the 70s when I was getting interested in feminism- but they are not at all widespread either. I agree with PPs that this is more to do with “queer theory” barging into feminism and online brainwashing of very young women online. Unfortunately the latter is proving very effective.

It is.

Thank you so much! You put in to words what I couldn't. Yes. I don't personally care of an individual chooses not to get married or to be child free for themselves. But the promotion of that being the only "acceptable" option is what I'm against.

Also I disagree that child free women are treated badly. There was a time that was true but when I was child free I was treated well. It wasn't until I got married and became a mother that I started feeling the looks of disapproval. I think the attitudes are very much shifting. I now get little negative comments on my lifestyle choices constantly now even when it isn't part of the conversation.

Also I'm against pushing against marriage as I feel only wealthy women do well without. Low income women definitely suffer when they opt out of marriage. The arguments against it are very flawed.

@YouAreNotBatman I think you protest way too much. I can't take you seriously anymore.

So there is a valid feminist critique of “what can we do about that,” but that’s not the same as saying marriage is bad, don’t have children, burn it all to the ground.

Yes there is definitely a prevalent attitude of burn it to the ground among many people. Like they definitely think the answer is to decimate humanity in the name of equal rights. It's so weird to me. It actually sounds like the motive of a JRPG villian it's so bad. "We can only end suffering by destroying all of humanity!"

I'm definitely team. "There's problems here let's find a way to fix it so we can preserve these important cultural traditions and life milestones that are deeply cherished by millions of people all around the world."

I've read up a little bit on queer theory last night and I'm morbidly intrigued. I did not know these were being darkly mixed. But it all started coming together. I had no idea it was happening since the seventies! That is really shocking to me! This definitely is some kind of dark twisted men's rights backlash against women's rights. My I need to get caught up on all of this. I feel so terribly uninformed. 😅🤦🏻‍♀️

Also I disagree that child free women are treated badly.

I promise you, they are.
But I know, you won’t take me seriously.
You’ll only listen what fits your agenda, good luck with that.

It wasn't until I got married and became a mother that I started feeling the looks of disapproval.

There is no way this is actually happening.
Other than in your head.

preserve these important cultural traditions and life milestones

Why?
Also, why not make new milestone?
Or also value people and celebrate them even if they don’t live conventional lives?
Why only getting married and pushing out kids is something you see as valuable and worth celebrating?