Thoughts on The Crying Game

[Standbyyourfrog]

I just watched this again for the first time since the current Troubles began, and was as blown away as I was 30 years ago, if not more so. Jaye Davidson's character is sympathetic in a way that is almost unimaginable today, for me at least, thanks to trans rights activists and the state of things.

It's the reveal that did it. Fergus vomiting makes you feel awful for Dil. Can you imagine how that scene would be handled now?

Just wanted to know your thoughts on the film, then (if you caught it then) and now.

He got his lad out. You only see it for a second but you get the message.

Haven't seen it, but feel like I don't need to thanks to the hilarious Father Ted summary.

It was a sensitive portrayal of someone trying to live a normal life, and the prejudice they face. Which sadly, has only got worse, not better.

I imagine today there would be protests and book burnings outside each theatre showing the film, and claims of "groomers".

What a sad world we live in now.

I think it really came off as a personal story. even much of the really political content. So as a viewer, that's how you respond to it. It doesn't feel like it is trying to "sell" a political vision, though I think the romantic and political side of the story are meant to be seen as parallel in some ways.

The other thing I would say is that the story never really disputes that the people in the story are both, in fact, men, and that what leads up to the shocking reveal is a misunderstanding that is clearly horrible for everyone involved. They muddle their way through that in a very messy, imperfect, and human way.

It's possible for people with really different perspectives to empathize with and understand the people in the story and the situations they are in, even if they don't like the choices they make. Something I find missing from a lot of films and television now.

Though it was sensitively done, it was the reason the film was so feted. Dil was a transvestite (that old fashioned word that has been replaced by transexual) passing as a woman and obviously in a gay relationship. The acceptance of that at the time the film was made was a big issue.
Add to that the IRA plot and the humanising of a terrorist (the film was made in the early 90's) it was all very trendy and worthy to my age group as it would be now to those in that age group.

I can differentiate between a thought provoking film and a noisy movement aiming to blur boundaries and subvert the rights that many women before me have fought hard to win.

I also enjoyed 'just like a woman' from the same era, but mainly because Adrian Pasdar was my crush. Would there be an outcry now for the fact he is straight and his transvestitism was obviously fetishistic.

Incidentally, when you refer to Troubles, are you trying to draw parallels with the headbutting a keyboard rights brigade and the situation in Ireland. No comparison.

It's a wonderful film which has aged great despite being very much of its era because its humanity is so authentic. You're not asked to sympathise with anyone or anything, there is no sentimentality, no patronising explaining. It trusts its viewers to become emotionally involved with characters who are probably very different from themselves, like adults. All helped out by great acting and music and imagery. It's a favorite!

Or protests and calls for cancelling for having a cisgay man playing a transwoman, no?

Jaye Davidson would be hounded for a grovelling apology for the harm done to the trans community and advised to do better.

Yes agreed. Like all minorities it's more authentic if a person from that background can portray the individual.

I'd love to watch it again. Is it on Netflix or amazon prime or something?

What does the Crying Game have to do with feminism? Maybe move this thread to the entertainment and movies section?

Davidson received nominations in both categories (won neither) for the Chicago Film Critics Association Award for Most Promising Actor/Actress in 1993.
Which is interesting, as Jaye definitely identified/identifies as male.
I liked the film back then and still like it now.

Did Jordan think of Davidson’s Dil as a pre-op transsexual?
"She wasn't that. She was a transvestite. And Jaye wasn't a transvestite, just a beautiful gay man. In the end, this is just a love story, a story that asks can anybody love anybody else?"
Rea concurs: “When Fergus first discovers Dil is a boy, he goes into the toilet and vomits. Neil used to say that if it was one of the Italians – De Niro or Pacino – they would have smashed him up. I suppose there’s something odd and touching about the complexity of Fergus’ reaction. It’s a beautiful, tender movie. The relationship is so lovely. That scene when he’s protesting: ‘You’re a man, I can’t handle this’, and Dil says: ‘Kiss me before you go.’ And he does and it’s the most beautiful kiss in the world and he’s in love. That’s so absolutely beautiful.”

Jaye was very feminine presenting with long hair back then and said his androgynous look alienated him within the gay community. He stated that gay men "love very masculine men. And I'm not a very masculine person. I'm reasonably thin. I have long hair, which isn't very popular with gay men."
He is very masculine-presenting now.

Jordan was asked at the time to cast a woman in the Dil role.

I think now he'd be expected to cast a trans actor but I don't know who could do it, Angel Qinan maybe or Hunter Schafer.
Problem being that Dill the character is not a transwoman they are a gay man.

@Resister It's not on Netflix or Amazon Prime, though I note the latter does offer 'The Crying Game in the Style of "Boy George"' [karaoke]. I watched it on one of those dodgy sites that get away with making films and TV shows freely available but inevitably get shut down after a while.

@quantumbutterfly re: parallels, occupation comes to mind, but beyond that I merely thought 'troubles' a nice succinct description.

@MishyJDI Thanks for the bump when I thought this had died.

The first thing I did after rewatching it was go looking for a trans perspective:
medium.com/quintessence-of-dust/a-trans-perspective-on-the-crying-game-3efef3286b9f
It is nearly impossible to overstate the damage this film has done to trans women.

Funny how I didn't once think Fergus might be gay, which seems so obvious to others:
thesundae.net/2020/01/06/gender-troubles-the-crying-game/ (I had to read that through gritted teeth at times, but it is very nicely written.)

An unfavourable review from shortly after it had come out which I hope will satisfy @Delphinium20 that this topic is in the right board:
chicagoreader.com/film/the-misogyny-game/
If, in the sexual economy of The Crying Game, a gay man has come to occupy the woman’s traditional place, where do women fit in? “Women are trouble,” Jody says in the second reel, and his assertion will stand as the essential statement of the film…

Jude, the only biological woman in The Crying Game, is a total bitch; not only is she nasty and crude, she is cowardly, sexually predatory, racist, and just plump enough to look ridiculous in her tight skirts. When she reappears toward the end of the film with a new hairdo and a pricey wardrobe, it is a nice little joke that she looks like a failed drag queen. She is trouble indeed, and it’s hard not to feel some satisfaction when she gets what she deserves. Jody was right about her, but we should recall that he qualified his initial judgment of women: “Some kind of women [are trouble]. Dil, she’s no trouble at all.

In other words, men make better women. Men have longer legs and tighter asses. They don’t get periods, and they don’t get pregnant. They can suck your cock and iron your shirts just as well as any woman, and they’re less likely to complain about it or expect anything in return. Aside from their still necessary role in propagation, women are pretty much worthless.

I'll add that at the beginning when Fergus says "Give him a cup of tea," he doesn't just go get it himself; Jude, the only woman in the room, does.

How to unmake a classic:
tilt.goombastomp.com/film/the-crying-game-at-30-a-thought-provoking-meditation-on-war-and-gender/
When I interviewed Neil Jordan in 2019, when he was promoting his film Greta, I asked him how he might have approached The Crying Game if he were making it at a time when attitudes towards trans people were more like that of today.

“If I were making the film today, the character would have either identified as transgender or not,” he said. “And actually, Jaye Davidson was a gay man, he wasn’t transgender… he wasn’t heading towards an operation or anything like that. And I present him as a transvestite, really.

"There would have been more awareness about what the character is, obviously on the part of [Stephen] Rea’s character there would have been far more obvious awareness if he’s meeting [her]. It’s interesting that the whole nomenclature and the whole way of speaking about those issues have changed since I made that movie, which is a good thing, really. I mean, it’s of its time really, that issue in particular.”

The reviews above are fascinating, particularly the idea that Fergus was closeted/attracted to Jody, which had never occurred to me either.

Problematic messages according to today's social mores:
Trans folks are obligated to share their status
Trans identities are inherently deviant/alternative and can be used to shock and titillate
When a cis male reacts violently to learning his partner is trans, he’s justified because somehow he’s been “had”

I referred above to Dil being a cross-dresser and a gay male but the trans perspective review does rightly point out that we only ever see Dil presenting as female - and working in a gay pub, they aren't seeing their identity as secret. So Dil is neither a drag queen nor choosing to dress from time to time, making them more transgender than transvestite.

Are trans folk obligated to share their status, if they have passing privilege?
Whilst younger generation may talk of pansexuality, I still think genital preference should not be taboo and that, whilst it may not be the first thing you say, if you think a relationship might head towards a sexual one, you should disclose - yes. Personal opinion. If your potential partner rejects you - their loss and you've saved yourself some time.

Trans identities to shock/titillate. That scene aside, Crying Game doesn't do deviant: Dil is the gentlest, most secure identity there.

Trans panic: Fergus does realise his reaction hurt Dil and regrets his response. He never calls them a man - he loves them. Whether Fergus then considers himself as gay/bi isn't dwelt upon ; he has fallen in love with Dil for who they are (which considering it was made three decades ago, is a message which aligns to now, at least as far as my understanding of demisexuality goes). Soul mates over genitalia.

There is a point where Dil is happy to dress as a boy if Fergus prefers him that way. I see his clothes as a costume not an identity. Was there any suggestion that he would prefer to be a woman.

Many of the gay men I've known have had quite a low opinion of women , I can't imagine them actually wanting to be one.

My thoughts too. The capitalised word has its own meaning.

It's grimly amusing to me that they're both T words.

...as is tangent

Yes agreed. Like all minorities it's more authentic if a person from that background can portray the individual.

There’s more to it than authenticity though isn’t there? There was one trans woman who was interviewed for that film Disclosure who blamed the murder of trans women on “cis” actors playing the role of trans women. I doubt a non-trans identified man would touch that role now.

You're not asked to sympathise with anyone or anything, there is no sentimentality, no patronising explaining. It trusts its viewers to become emotionally involved with characters who are probably very different from themselves, like adults.

This. Everything is so preachy nowadays. It’s so refreshing to watch something that isn’t forcing a particular moral perspective on its audience.

Films\books are manipulative when done well. It's always impressive to me how they can make you hate a character one minute then sympathise with them the next. I'm a very simple person.

Films like The Crying Game or My Beautiful Launderette would not have been so successful even ten years earlier.

Crying Game is a beautifully made film. Must watch it again.

Don’t be daft Mishi, The Crying Game had an 18 rating in the UK and was absolutely not aimed at, nor shown to, children.

Nonsense, films with LGBT+ content are released regularly at cinemas today (and unlike The Crying Game are poor quality wise and have just been made for box-ticking quotas), there are no protests, just that people don't go and watch them. Then the producers moan about people being bigots for not wanting to watch their film.

The constant fantasy of victimisation is what gives gender ideology and queer theory legs.

The film is about a member of the IRA who meets up with the girlfriend (who actually turns out to be male) of British army hostage.

That's why the OP talks about The Troubles, because that is what the film is about!

Yep.

Last year’s Netflix teen drama Heartstoppee (age rating 12) has a been a massive hit.

It even has a trans supporting character.

Great ratings on Rotten Tomatoes from both pro critics and audience

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/tv/what-time-heartstopper-out-netflix-23745484

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartstopper_(TV_series)

Not an American import either, mostly shot on location in Berkshire and Kent.

I really must rewatch Crying Game and come back to this thread - anyone know where it’s showing online?

Yes, why is this here? It certainly belongs elsewhere as it has nothing to do with this board

I doubt that very much.