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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism as Racist Backlash

64 replies

IwantToRetire · 10/03/2023 16:54

Just in case you weren't aware that women are to blame for everything, now you can learn how feminism is an extention of racism! (Although it implies that 21st Century Feminism is not driven by Racism?)

How Racism Drove the Development of Nineteenth and Twentieth Century Feminist Theory - part of the University of Sheffield Faculty of Arts and Humanities Decolonisation Series

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/feminism-as-racist-backlash-fah-decolonisation-series-tickets-522058409757?aff=ebdssbdestsearch

OP posts:
Misstache · 07/06/2023 19:25

I don’t agree with the article, but as always I find it interesting that people on a board based in the UK insist on seeing race (and particularly discussions of black people and race) as an exclusively US phenomenon. You do realize the UK was involved in the slave trade for hundreds of years, that British people owned plantations across the Caribbean, that the British economy was driven by slavery (see Eric Williams’ work on the slavery economy) and that Britain colonized countries across Africa, the Caribbean, and Asia until the 1960s? And that money, those laws, and that those social and political ideas shaped British society as well?

So no, the corollary in Britain wouldn’t be solely “the working class,” but rather the treatment of Black and brown women across the world in countries where white women serving as missionaries and teachers spread the ideologies of white supremacy. The difference is in the US it was “at home” while in the UK these interactions largely took place abroad in the colonized country (other than nannies /domestics.) But that doesn’t mean women didn’t play a role and that it didn’t affect the politics, views, and conceptions of womanhood - for example, I think of Mary Kingsley who was hailed as a progressive scientist, adventurer and boundary breaking woman but whose memoir of her travels in Africa is of course deeply racist and anti-African.

There is a complex relationship in white women’s roles in colonization and slavery - white women experience patriarchy and rhetoric about black male rapists was used both to control black people AND to control white women’s movements under the guise of white men protecting white women from black male rapists. White women also did abuse black women viciously. White women were also trafficked to the colonies as brides. So white women both had household power over enslaved/people in servitude AND ALSO were victims of patriarchy. To say that shorter, it’s not FEMINISM that goes hand in hand with racism, it’s patriarchy. White women have a complex role within patriarchy as white men use the protection of white women to justify violence against Black and brown people and many women of all races ride hard for patriarchy. And white women, who have relationships with white men as husbands, fathers, sons, etc often defend those men over black and brown women (to be fair just as women all over the world often defend men over women.)

Moving back to the US, it’s absurd though to say the “purpose” of feminism was racism. First of all, what do we mean by feminism? For example, it’s true that the largest womens’ organization for years in Indiana was the Women’s KKK, but I wouldn’t agree the goals of the WKKK were explicitly feminist - most of the rhetoric was around protecting white families including patriarchal and regressive gender roles. I think he’s conflating any organizing by women as feminist when obviously deeply traditional and conservative women also organize. It would be like labelling the Westboro Baptist Church “feminist” because women organized protests in leading roles.

Many progressive feminist women organized for the abolition of slavery as has been stated in this thread - in fact, tactics like the sugar boycott where women realized the political power of controlling the household purchasing income were influential in rising feminist consciousness. Many women took strategies they learned in abolitionist organizing and turned them towards feminist organizing.

Feminist women also were instrumental in things like prohibition - at the time they saw domestic violence caused by alcohol as a danger especially to working class women, so the simplistic parody of these women simply as misguided prudes ignores that we still don’t have good solutions. We can look back now and say prohibition was silly and middle class meddling, but that misses the complexities of trying to navigate social problems. The Eugenicism shared not only by feminist women but by many progressive men as well is less defensible and clearly classist, ableist and racist, but which of our views will or will not hold up 100 years from now? One hopes that those in the future will be baffled and horrified by us because it would mean we have moved forward - would that negate all our acts and views? Would it be fair for them to say “all” our feminism was based on those negative things?

The eugenics argument against some feminists while true is manipulated weaponized by anti-abortion men who try to pretend therefore birth control is a white supremacist plot to kill (Black male) babies. There’s a huge rhetoric targeting Black women’s rights to reproductive care by saying that abortion and birth control were designed by white women to convince us to kill our babies blah blah blah. So what men like this are really about is to try to convince black women that the patriarchy is our culture and abortions are bad and evil. But of course don’t want to look at men’s roles in making/raising babies.

In fact, this rhetoric is what is actually racist. It’s well documented that under Nixon (this is in a U.S. context obviously) that the Moynihan report was explicitly used to inject rhetoric around black women’s liberation harming Black men and the black family. Because black women have always been the root of the family and play organizing roles in community, Moynihan deliberately created rhetoric around Black women emasculating black men and the need for black men to take back their families and manhood. This set up black women as the enemy and black men as the victims of black women. This is a deeply sexist and racist idea of black women as masculine, emasculating, bad mothers, angry, overbearing and so forth. This was picked up by black male leaders - but it was a deliberate attack on black communities by attacking women.

This type of black man, just like sexist white men, sees black men as the only victims while ignoring the huge rates of sexual and domestic violence against black women. This was exactly why black feminism formed - because black women’s experiences were ignored by the mainstream feminist movement, while black women’s leadership and lives were ignored in civil rights/Black power. One of the early texts was called “All the women are white, all the blacks are men.” Black women organized in civil rights and taught King much about organizing but have been erased. I know some here have absorbed a negative view of intersectionality but if you actually read Crenshaw’s original essay it’s not about “identity politics” or “oppression Olympics,” it’s identifying and explaining these issues. She has a whole section about the rape of black women and the histories of sexual violence in enslavement and segregation, and a whole section about the development of Black feminist thought.

Hazel Carby is well worth reading about the UK context and this article has some names and histories: https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/black-feminism-united-kingdom

Black Feminism in the United Kingdom | Encyclopedia.com

Black Feminism in the United KingdomBlack feminism in the United Kingdom (UK) has it roots in the postcolonial activism and struggles of black women migrants from the Caribbean, Africa, and the Indian subcontinent. These women came to Great Britain dur...

https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/black-feminism-united-kingdom

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 07/06/2023 19:47

Thank you Misstache, that was really interesting.

Misstache · 07/06/2023 20:09

I should also say that black women ALSO cape for harmful and violent black men too (and white men for that matter.) So it’s not something unique to white women. Women of ALL RACES will defend men, shame and judge other women, and take benefits from aligning with male power. It’s patriarchy and sexism that are the issue. ALL women have to work to unlearn this. Acting like black men or men of any and all races aren’t sexist just because they also experience racism just harms women, particularly black women who have spent generations being told that speaking up about black men makes us tools of white supremacy. This is how violence against us gets hidden and silenced.

Men are always trying to divide women from each other so we don’t start talking and organizing.

TLDR this hotep is idiotic

LangClegsInSpace · 07/06/2023 20:23

GrinitchSpinach · 10/03/2023 18:29

It is accurate to say that many US suffragists were involved in the movement to abolish slavery, and that the relationships between white US suffragist women and black US abolitionist men was complicated and fraught. I'm not an expert in the area so won't weigh in at length on that aspect.

In today's context, I think the speech on misogynoir by Lorraine Nowlin of WDI USA at the national convention in September 2022 is relevant:

lorrainenowlin.substack.com/p/wdi-usa-convention-speech

The whole thing is really, really worthwhile. Here is the conclusion:

Lynching was used to shape my perception of White women as liars not to be trusted. I am stretching my thinking about White women; will you stretch your thinking about me and other Black women? Consider that Black women were victims of sexual terrorism by White men while working as maids in White homes during Jim Crow. It makes me wonder if White women were taught not to see Black women as victims of White male sexual aggression but as loose women. It is likely that we were both given carefully crafted exaggerations about each other by our “grandparents” which in turn influences how we perceive each other. Again, we must stretch our thinking beyond what we were taught in order to Reignite the Women’s Liberation Movement.

This is brilliant, thank you.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/06/2023 20:33

To be fair, there is truth to the argument that the extension of the vote to women in America was in part argued for as a counter to concern about giving black men the vote

It is also true that some white women worked for black male suffrage and many black women and I believe even a couple of men supported female suffrage.

I always wonder why the black male suffrage movement isn’t castigated for arguing for suffrage for both black men and black women.

LangClegsInSpace · 07/06/2023 20:33

@Maduixa , @Misstache great posts, thank you for taking the time.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/06/2023 20:34

As for the speaker it sounds very much like misogyny is becoming mainstream and acceptable.

IwantToRetire · 08/06/2023 00:49

I don’t agree with the article, but as always I find it interesting that people on a board based in the UK insist on seeing race (and particularly discussions of black people and race) as an exclusively US phenomenon.

I haven't re-read this thread but from the time it was first posted, I dont remember anyone denying the existence of race / racism as an active part of the UK today and in the past.

The confusion was that the author of the article made claims that didn't seem to stand up, and part of the thread was trying to understand the interaction of racism and feminism in the US and whether this had influenced the author.

re. the article Black Feminism in the UK its is interesting but focuses on a particular political grouping of women from different communities in the UK, ie left both radical and labour socialism. It doesn't reference any of the Black Women activists who grew out of and away from Women's Liberation, but certainly didn't identify with the academic, left organising groups identified in the article.

eg where is the mention of Outwrite very much part of the concept of autonomous organsing outside of existing male structures, and the grassroots activism of Olive Morris (ignored as almost certainly the creator of what became Women's Refuges - ie not Erin Pizzey). Most of the early refuges were set up and run by local working class and Black women to help women in their communities. (Another example of when funding enters the picture the "professionals" move in and appropriate the work of those who dont sit and write papers, thesis and hold conferences.)

So not in any way saying the article isn't valuable, but it is the product of an academic approach to feminism that ignores that many of the actual practical advances made for women in the UK, was from grass roots organising.

I wonder if there are any oral history projects that will give Black Women who were grass roots organisers the opportunity to talk about their achievements and be equally recognised as those who fit the academic paper notion of what is important.

OP posts:
Misstache · 08/06/2023 02:23

I 100% agree about leaving out working class, grassroots organizing as well as organizing outside of official organizations - it’s a shame so much of working class womens’ history for all women is erased or diminished. Especially with race/class solidarity work because it’s the middle/professional classes that are more racially segregated. Working class women have so many histories of racial solidarity that isn’t treated as “real” activism and protest.

TooBigForMyBoots · 08/06/2023 02:46

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/06/2023 20:34

As for the speaker it sounds very much like misogyny is becoming mainstream and acceptable.

Unfortunately misogyny is mainstream and acceptable. Feminism developed millenia before we called it "feminism" to help women deal with and counter the misogyny miasma that surrounds us.

OneHundredOtters · 08/06/2023 08:56

A bit late to the party but here's a sharetoken for the times link

Article

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d45b8dd2-cc61-11ea-b702-e559f69f5512?shareToken=a3c328201d3dc342e88255e650c66468

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/06/2023 09:37

Let's topple the statues of all men, irrespective of status, race, colour or creed who can be demonstrated to agree with sexist ideologies or have been sexist in their lifetimes.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 08/06/2023 09:41

I have the same question here as I have in relation to every piece of idiocy dribbling out of our universities at the moment; why the fuck am I paying for this?

namitynamechange · 08/06/2023 18:05

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2018/2/6/how-indian-women-contributed-to-the-suffrage-movement. This is a much better article on the subject. Undoubtedly individuals like Fawcett were flawed, and there is nuance in the fact that women's rights in India were considered but Indian women weren't seen as equals. But having good intentions coupled with a patronising attitude is NOT the same as being a slave trader and I don't see how it helps at all to suggest they are. What I mostly got from that times article though is that it's author is a bit of an edgelord who's found a way to make it pay. As opposed to mukherjee who may say uncomfortable things but is interested in actual history.

Women’s suffrage fight not ‘purely Western phenomenon’

Historian Sumita Mukherjee on the contribution of South Asian women to British women’s suffrage battle 100 years ago.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2018/2/6/how-indian-women-contributed-to-the-suffrage-movement

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