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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mary Harrington's 'Feminism Against Progress' book is out.

347 replies

ArabellaScott · 02/03/2023 17:33

Looking forward to this one. I know she gets mixed responses; I find her work really interesting.

swiftpress.com/book/feminism-against-progress/

OP posts:
thedankness · 07/03/2023 17:23

Apart from greater effectiveness, I definitely do not understand the appeal of the pill and why it was so game changing if condoms existed.

If the pill and legal abortions became available in the same year, maybe it was actually abortions that affected women's sexual behaviour the most.

ArabellaScott · 07/03/2023 17:25

I think there was a certain amount of mystique built around the Pill. It's maybe hard to grasp how it affected things if you weren't there, but I grew up when AIDS was absolutely huge, so condoms were king of contraceptives.

OP posts:
Onnabugeisha · 07/03/2023 17:26

ArabellaScott · 07/03/2023 17:21

Fair play to you, Onna, I can't even imagine doing any of that!

Doing it was far easier than facing the criticism and judgement. Admittedly we are talking pre2000 to early 2000s and I’d like to hope we have moved on from that and are more open to mothers leaving the baby with SAHDs and being sole breadwinner/high earner.

I probably get overly defensive and curt when discussing this issue because I was made to feel like a terrible and unnatural mother for not even wanting to be home with them as babies. We never judge fathers for being parents and working FT, but any mother with infants or preschool age children who isn’t sacrificing her career to be at home- well the claws would come out.

So to jump to the point, I apologise for being strident in my opinion on this.

HiccupHorrendousHaddock · 07/03/2023 17:28

A side note, but Swift Press are really doing some heavy lifting here and I've very impressed. They publish Hannah Barne's Time To Think and they're publishing Sharron Davies's Unfair Play in June.

ArabellaScott · 07/03/2023 17:29

No need to apologise, I didn't get you as being strident at all. Just far more energetic and dedicated than I can imagine being!

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 07/03/2023 17:30

Anyway, I think the word 'strident' is banned on FWR, isn't it? It should be.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 07/03/2023 17:30

One thing I've seen mentioned is maternal ambivalence having been far more of a topic in 2nd wave feminism than it is now. Not sure what happened to that, tbh.

OP posts:
Onnabugeisha · 07/03/2023 17:31

thedankness · 07/03/2023 17:23

Apart from greater effectiveness, I definitely do not understand the appeal of the pill and why it was so game changing if condoms existed.

If the pill and legal abortions became available in the same year, maybe it was actually abortions that affected women's sexual behaviour the most.

The pill was more discreet and allowed more spontaneous sex with less fear of pregnancy. You’d go and buy condoms and you have to buy them openly at the till in front of a cashier. With a pill, it’s a prescription and you just say I’m here to collect prescription for myself and it’s handed over in an anonymous paper bag. When the pill first came out, it was considered faintly scandalous to be known to be using contraception if it meant you were having sex outside of marriage. It took until the late 70s before it became culturally acceptable to just go get on the pill and taking it didn’t brand you a nymphomaic.

nepeta · 07/03/2023 17:33

ArabellaScott · 07/03/2023 08:27

Would anyone like to make a separate thread to discuss why feminism isn't attending enough to men and men's issues, so we can stick to the OP for this one? Just a thought.

Many of us have had these discussions dozens of times over before, and they are derailing and detracting from the point if the thread.

This would be a good idea. That thread could put together all the MRA arguments by Farrel and others.

The problem with the Men's Rights Movement, with some (but not many) exceptions, is that they are not doing any of the actual work to help men and boys. As far as I can tell, they demand that feminism is supposed to do that work (or demand that feminism must entirely end). It's the idea of the female sex as the global psychological support and mothering sex.

The MRA arguments are not used to fix the problems but to keep the status quo or to retreat to higher levels of patriarchy by stating that the system isn't that great for some men or boys, either, so the existing system is just fine, even if it hurts women and girls.

For instance, the argument made on this thread earlier that women just want the good bits men have and not the bad bits (greater homelessness, higher suicide rates, being more likely to be victims of other men).

But the system IS what causes all these things, and some call patriarchy. Women can't alter that system on their own. Men must do some of the work.

Male violence is what mostly kills men (and women), and the causes of that and ways to alter it should be a focus for the MRAs.

Boys dropping out of school at greater rates (especially in minorities) has much to do with masculinity sub-cultures (something is beneath men if women can do it well, too, say) and, to some extent, with the fact that jobs available to those without formal education are still somewhat better for men than for women, so women and girls have a greater incentive to stay in school.

The MRAs should go and talk to boys in schools and create organisations which encourage boys to read and study and come off computer games and consider a wider range of possible future jobs than those traditionally labeled male.

Others should do that work, too, but it's not something feminism alone should be lumbered with, given its minute resources and, on global level, enormous problems it already grapples with to protect girls and women.

So what troubles me with this angle in the debate is that it seems to be used to argue against any changes which would make the world better for girls and women by suggesting that all this is a zero-sum game. Which it doesn't have to be:

That encouraging greater participation in parenting for men might, in fact, increase the likelihood that fewer marriages will fail and so increase the likelihood that men keep more of the social ties which give some protection against depression and suicidal ideation etc should be something MRAs might want to consider.

Many of the problems they mention men suffer from are caused by patriarchal norms, and fighting those would help men, too. For example, the hierarchical nature of extreme patriarchy (as it exists in Afghanistan, say) strips all women and girls of power, but also strips many men of power also, while greatly benefiting the small number on top.

Having rigid sex-based divisions in economic roles can ultimately harm men, too, because when child custody is contested in divorce it is likely to go to the parent who did the hands-on child-care. If women are expected to do that, men are more likely to lose custody (though in US cases that go to court this doesn't seem to be the case as outcomes are fairly even).

thedankness · 07/03/2023 17:39

Onnabugeisha · 07/03/2023 17:31

The pill was more discreet and allowed more spontaneous sex with less fear of pregnancy. You’d go and buy condoms and you have to buy them openly at the till in front of a cashier. With a pill, it’s a prescription and you just say I’m here to collect prescription for myself and it’s handed over in an anonymous paper bag. When the pill first came out, it was considered faintly scandalous to be known to be using contraception if it meant you were having sex outside of marriage. It took until the late 70s before it became culturally acceptable to just go get on the pill and taking it didn’t brand you a nymphomaic.

Interesting. All these social factors, some of them seemingly minor and random, meant more woman taking a risky/harmful drug (although we wouldn't have known about all the side effects at the time) whilst men could absolve all responsibility for the consequence of sex whilst having the most enjoyable ie. condomless sex whilst women's libido lowers as a result of this drug, as does their barrier for sex. Social coercion or chance? Maybe Mary Harrington is right that the pill was the most anti-feminist form of progress.

nepeta · 07/03/2023 17:40

thedankness · 07/03/2023 17:23

Apart from greater effectiveness, I definitely do not understand the appeal of the pill and why it was so game changing if condoms existed.

If the pill and legal abortions became available in the same year, maybe it was actually abortions that affected women's sexual behaviour the most.

My grandmother told me some stories about the pre-pill era. Women did abortions with implements found at home or on the farm (ghastly stories resulting in hushed-up deaths). Condoms were something some men could get hold of, not women, and if they were used depended only on the man's willingness.

So the pill put something in women's hands for the first time in history that could prevent a pregnancy, other than not having sex at all.

DemiColon · 07/03/2023 17:45

ArabellaScott · 06/03/2023 16:01

What social structures don't support 'specific needs'?

This separatist utopia sounds a bit like a red herring, tbh. Most feminists are in het relationships, most have families.

If you want to talk about family structures, or the utility of marriage as an institution, or how to make sure mothers are supported to take care of kids, you are also talking about the lives of people who aren't mothers and aren't women.

If women are oppressed by capitalism, or industrialization, as some believe, and you want to change those things to improve that situation, you are also talking about the lives of men.

If you want husbands and fathers to step up, you are also talking about the lives of men.

If you want the whole population to contribute financially to something like universal childcare, you are also talking about men contributing.

Onnabugeisha · 07/03/2023 17:47

thedankness · 07/03/2023 17:39

Interesting. All these social factors, some of them seemingly minor and random, meant more woman taking a risky/harmful drug (although we wouldn't have known about all the side effects at the time) whilst men could absolve all responsibility for the consequence of sex whilst having the most enjoyable ie. condomless sex whilst women's libido lowers as a result of this drug, as does their barrier for sex. Social coercion or chance? Maybe Mary Harrington is right that the pill was the most anti-feminist form of progress.

Well tbf, I hate sex with condoms. The spermicide and powder on them makes my vag burn the next day so while it was good in the moment, I paid for it the days after. So condomless sex not just more enjoyable for men, but for many women too.

I did briefly go on the pill until I found out hormones messed with my moods, and my libido actually went up because no more condoms and sunburnt carpet burn feeling vag the next day as a result.

Onnabugeisha · 07/03/2023 17:49

if they were used depended only on the man's willingness.
This is a good point. The pill gave us a level of control that we hadn’t had before.

thedankness · 07/03/2023 17:55

nepeta · 07/03/2023 17:40

My grandmother told me some stories about the pre-pill era. Women did abortions with implements found at home or on the farm (ghastly stories resulting in hushed-up deaths). Condoms were something some men could get hold of, not women, and if they were used depended only on the man's willingness.

So the pill put something in women's hands for the first time in history that could prevent a pregnancy, other than not having sex at all.

I see. I made this point earlier but hearing about this makes me feel so lucky to be living now. Although it is ironic that I have all this contraception easily available to me and yet don't want to have sex with a man because they're all porn addled. 🙄

thedankness · 07/03/2023 17:59

Onnabugeisha · 07/03/2023 17:49

if they were used depended only on the man's willingness.
This is a good point. The pill gave us a level of control that we hadn’t had before.

Yes I was wondering about whether "stealthing" existed going back. I guess it probably did, alongside lack of widespread easy access to condoms by both sexes.

Bosky · 07/03/2023 18:28

As we are talking about condoms vs other methods of contraception:

Attention, Ladies: Semen Is an Antidepressant
Vaginal exposure to semen elevates women's mood

Perhaps you're familiar with the McClintock effect, the observation that when groups of reproductive-age women live or work together (in college housing, the military, all-female workplaces, etc.), over time their menstrual periods tend to become synchronized. The accepted explanation is that the women detect each other's pheromones, subtle scents that each of us produces, and somehow these only faintly aromatic but powerful compounds influence the women's hormones and make their menstrual periods arrive around the same time.

But at the State University of New York, two evolutionary psychologists were puzzled to discover that lesbians show no McClintock effect. Why not? Gordon Gallup and Rebecca Burch realized that the only real difference between lesbians and heterosexual women is that the latter are exposed to semen. They speculated that maybe semen chemistry has something to do with the McClintock effect. But if that were true, the vagina would have to absorb compounds in semen that affected the women's pheromones.

Semen is best known for what's not absorbed by the vagina, sperm, which swim through it on their way into the fallopian tubes where fertilization takes place. But sperm comprises only about 3 percent of semen. The rest is seminal fluid: mostly water, plus about 50 compounds: sugar (to nourish sperm), immunosuppressants (to keep women's immune systems from destroying sperm), and oddly, two female sex hormones, and many mood-elevating compounds: endorphins, estrone, prolactin, oxytocin, thyrotropin-releasing hormone, and serotonin.

continued at:

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/201101/attention-ladies-semen-is-antidepressant

One benefit of the pill for some women, including myself, was liberation from crippling menstrual cramps. The years between coming off the pill and the menopause were marred by being pretty much incapacitated for a few days every month.

RethinkingLife · 07/03/2023 19:03

Tuned in to MH on Triggernometry: Why 'Progress' is Bad for Women.

It was intriguing to monitor how much I disagreed with a fair number of her assertions such as
*women and pre-industrial history
*her claim that the sex and porn industries 'exploded' post the pill.
And then I realised that I'd have to check her book to see what sort of sources she's using.

ArabellaScott · 07/03/2023 19:06

Perhaps you're familiar with the McClintock effect, the observation that when groups of reproductive-age women live or work together (in college housing, the military, all-female workplaces, etc.), over time their menstrual periods tend to become synchronized.

I thought that was proven to be spurious?

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 07/03/2023 19:07

Lo, read all about 'alpha wombs'.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37256161

OP posts:
110APiccadilly · 07/03/2023 19:09

ArabellaScott · 07/03/2023 19:06

Perhaps you're familiar with the McClintock effect, the observation that when groups of reproductive-age women live or work together (in college housing, the military, all-female workplaces, etc.), over time their menstrual periods tend to become synchronized.

I thought that was proven to be spurious?

I'm sure I remember it being discussed ages ago on More Or Less and they said the evidence wasn't there for it. Some issues with data selection bias, maybe?

Bosky · 07/03/2023 19:25

ArabellaScott · 07/03/2023 19:06

Perhaps you're familiar with the McClintock effect, the observation that when groups of reproductive-age women live or work together (in college housing, the military, all-female workplaces, etc.), over time their menstrual periods tend to become synchronized.

I thought that was proven to be spurious?

I don't know. It's not the main point of the article, just the reason that they did the study. It's a survey rather than a study of physiology though and there could be other reasons for the findings. I thought it was quite new but I misread 2011 as 2021 . . . 👀

A study on semen exposure and women's mood

Vaginal tissue is very absorptive. It's richly endowed with blood and lymph vessels. Given vaginal absorptiveness and all the mood-elevating compounds found in semen, Gallup, Burch, and SUNY colleague Steven Platek wondered if semen exposure might be associated with better mood and less depression. They surveyed 293 college women at SUNY Albany about intercourse with and without condoms and then gave the women the Beck Depression Inventory, a standard test of mood. Compared with women who "always" or "usually" used condoms, those who "never" did, whose vaginas were exposed to semen, showed significantly better mood—fewer depressive symptoms, and fewer bouts of depression. In addition, compared to women who had no intercourse at all, the semen-exposed women showed more elevated mood and less depression.

Meanwhile, risky sex is usually associated with negative self-esteem and depressed mood. Among college women, risky sex includes intercourse without condoms, so we would expect sex sans condoms to be associated with more depressive symptoms, and more serious depression including suicide attempts. However, in the Gallup-Burch-Platek study, among women who "always" or "usually" used condoms, about 20 percent reported suicidal thoughts, but among those who used condoms only "sometimes," the figure was much lower, 7 percent, and among women who "never" used condoms, only 5 percent reported suicidal thoughts. (This study controlled for relationship duration, amount of sex, use of the Pill, and days since last sexual encounter.) So it appears quite possible that the antidepressants in semen might have a real mood-elevating effect.

Finally, recall that in addition to antidepressant compounds, semen also contains two female sex hormones, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH). FSH spurs egg maturation in the ovary. LH is involved in triggering ovulation. Why would semen contain compounds that encourage ovulation? From an evolutionary perspective, this makes perfect sense.

Consider our closest biological relatives, the chimpanzees. Chimp semen contains no FSH or LH, but ovulating females develop red buttocks, clearly signally reproductive readiness. In contrast, human women have concealed ovulation. Men don't know when women are most fertile. Compared with men whose semen lacked ovulation-triggering hormones, those whose semen contain these hormones would gain a small reproductive advantage. Their semen would encourage ovulation, and their sperm would be more likely to fertilize eggs.

I'm not advocating that reproductive-age people shun condoms to elevate women's mood at the risk of unplanned pregnancy. But this effect might come in handy for women over age 50, who are experiencing menopausal blues.

I'm fascinated by the chemical complexity of semen. Until recently, scientists believed that its sole purpose was to nourish and protect sperm on their way to fertilization. But now it appears that semen spurs ovulation and makes women feel happier. That might explain why many women report increased interest in sex around the time of ovulation.

References

Bering, J. "An Ode to the Many Evolved Virtues of Human Semen," Scientific American, Sept. 22, 2010.

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/201101/attention-ladies-semen-is-antidepressant

HBGKC · 07/03/2023 19:27

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 07/03/2023 17:21

With respect, the economic power thing is very much thinking inside the box

Yes, this is my feeling too.

I'm definitely not ok with the idea that in order to feel ourselves equally of value, women need to stop/curb/reduce doing the only things which truly differentiate us from men (eg pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding), in order to attain parity of economic power in the workplace. Whilst important, it's not the be all and end all of life - particularly of women's lives, dare I say it.

Lpc3 · 07/03/2023 19:39

@nepeta Re MRAs not doing anything to help I think they would argue men are so sex focused they will adapt their behaviour that gets them the most results.

If women started rewarding men who would go part time or stop work altogether to be a stay at home fathers they would quickly change their approach. As it currently stands the majority of women wouldn't find that a particularly attractive trait in a man and he would be overlooked. I know I've seen studies previously which say women would rather see their husband mow the lawn rather dust - who knows if that is actually true but you get my point. This is all a bit chicken and egg.

Then you get the MRAs who say not to adapt their behaviour for women and just work on themselves ie the MGTOWs (who don't seem to follow their advice as they never seem to actually go away...).

As someone pointed out earlier it seems we just replace one compromise for another with no real improvement.

RethinkingLife · 07/03/2023 19:47

My grandmother told me some stories about the pre-pill era.

Women also had more children and more STIs.

Thanks to the religious teaching that was still widespread in the UK at the time the pill was introduced, lots of girls and women regularly heard social and religious reinforcement that

  • women are the gateway to evil
  • only 'bad' women got STIs or cervical cancer.

So many women who knew that they'd had no sexual experience other than with their partner didn't consult GPs about their symptoms because of the complete lack of emphasis on considering how many sexual partners their own partner had had.

It might have been difficult for women to obtain condoms but that was a time when it was no picnic buying sanitary protection (mostly in chemists, horrendously bulky, and there was even a stigma in some communities about buying tampons rather than towels).