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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Children protesting about unisex toilets

82 replies

dimorphism · 01/03/2023 11:07

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11802555/TikTok-protests-rock-Britains-schools-Pupils-scale-gates-trash-classrooms-rules.html

It's not just about unisex toilets, it's also not being able to go to the loo during lessons (also a bigger issue for girls) and uniform.

The thing that is shocking is quotes such as boys putting phones under the toilet doors and girls not going to the loo all day. We know this happens in mixed sex spaces, it's not rocket science, why on earth weren't proper risk assessments done? It has to be illegal and sex discrimination not to prevent known risks from unisex toilets?

It's shameful that CHILDREN are having to do this themselves. Where are the adults? Where is safeguarding?

Why are the facts known to development charities for years that you need single sex toilets for girls to be able access their human right to education ignored just because it's the UK?

There are a few women like Miriam Cates and KJK who can hold their heads up high about this but not many adults are protecting children (and I include myself in this - I felt shame reading this). It's so shocking.

OP posts:
JemimaTiggywinkles · 01/03/2023 12:58

According to a meeting I attended recently, Ofsted will only get involved if at least 10% of parents complain. That is incredibly difficult, as each set of parents has to go through the school's complaints procedure first.

bellswithwhistles · 01/03/2023 13:02

You're in danger of being accused of being prejudiced against trans if you kick up about it.

3 trans kids in DD's school - hence why they changed the toilets to mixed. 2400 other kids don't count apparently.

Surely you just install a porta loo cabin for those 3 trans kids?! They've already 'come out' so having to use their own toilet surely is no major issue?

IWilloBeACervix · 01/03/2023 13:53

My daughter’s school are soon to be making some ‘improvements’ to the toilets. I’ve been emailing them about it and haven’t managed to get very far with them.

They aren’t thinking about the children. They’re only focus is on trying to stop misbehaviour in the toilets. The proper solution, as mentioned upthread, is more staff.

They are having boys cubicles on one side to the wash area and girls on the other, so it’s a mashup of single-sex cubicles in a mixed sex facility. I don’t think that’s how the guidance is meant to be interpreted. The mixed-sex option is for either separate disabled facilities or where they only have space for one toilet, not the main toilets!

I think I might have to try and get some other parents involved, but I don’t know how.

It’ll cost a fortune to rectify. I’m trying to save them money in the long run.

dimorphism · 01/03/2023 14:02

oldwomanwhoruns · 01/03/2023 12:55

We are advised that parents need to complain, in writing. Not just the school, but to Ofstead, DofE, your MP, and the Education minister. Also to the school governors (of course)

Right now they are saying 'oh but we don't get many complaints'.

So complain to ALL these people and bodies.

Are there any standard letters? If there was something short and concise stating the law, I am sure many parents would send.

It doesn't even need to necessarily be specific it could just be an:

I just want to confirm that X school is complying with Y law and that there are adequate numbers of single sex toilets for all children.

Schools collect data on attendance and I'd love to see the breakdown by sex in single and mixed sex schools and between schools with single sex toilets (adequate numbers not 1) and mixed sex. I'm 100% certain it would show what is basic common sense. Of course I expect no one's looking at this (despite attendance being the MOST important thing otherwise)

How any teacher can live with themselves if they're in a school with one single sex toilet and a massive queue of girls waiting every break and lunch I don't know. It's a visual message that girls don't matter and they are second class humans.

OP posts:
oldwomanwhoruns · 01/03/2023 14:05

I think that Safe Schools Alliance have some good standard letters?

Dwrcegin · 01/03/2023 14:07

One assumes that these 'fully enclosed cubicles' also contain washbasins, but apparently this is a slightly grey area.

I am deeply opposed to unisex toilets in school, it really winds me up. There aren't sinks in the cubicle in our local school.

The locks on those types of cubicle doors are easily broken off (they can be kicked open and most alarmingly, opened from the outside of the door).

Boys urinate over everything - and I do mean everything - in the cubicle so they can't be used by girls or anyone really. I am not surprised children are protesting.

Funny thing is the staff toilets have remained single sexed use. Shall we take a guess at why?

birchtreeglow · 01/03/2023 14:08

Here is the DfE's non-statutory advice 'Standards for School Premises'.

Government documents (advice, guidance and even secondary legislation) have not always represented the primary legislaion correctly, so may be worth checking out the regulations within the advice document.

www.gov.uk/guidance/standards-for-school-premises

"The Standards
Toilet and washing facilities

ISS Regulation 23A — (1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2), the standard in this paragraph is met if the proprietor ensures that—

a) suitable toilet and washing facilities are provided for the sole use of pupils;

b) separate toilet facilities for boys and girls aged 8 years or over are provided except where the toilet facility is provided in a room that can be secured from the inside and that is intended for use by one pupil at a time; and

c) suitablechangingaccommodationandshowersareprovidedforpupilsaged11 years or over at the start of the school year who receive physical education.

(2) Where separate facilities are provided under sub-paragraph (1) (a) for pupils who are disabled, they may also be used by other pupils, staff, supply staff, volunteers and visitors, whether or not they are disabled.

SPRs Regulation 4 — (1) Subject to paragraph (3), suitable toilet and washing facilities must be provided for the sole use of pupils.

(2) Separate toilet facilities for boys and girls aged 8 years or over must be provided except where the toilet facility is provided in a room that can be secured from the inside and that is intended for use by one pupil at a time.

(3) Where separate facilities are provided under paragraph (1) for pupils who are disabled, they may also be used by other pupils, teachers and others employed at the school, and visitors, whether or not they are disabled.

(4) Suitable changing accommodation and showers must be provided for pupils aged 11 years or over at the start of the school year who receive physical education.

Numbers of fittings
The regulations do not set the minimum number of fittings to be provided in relation to the ages and numbers of pupils. Generally the needs of younger pupils are likely to be greater than those for older ones. So, for example, a provision of one toilet and washbasin for every ten pupils under 5 years old would be adequate, while that ratio could be doubled for pupils aged 5-11 to one toilet and washbasin for every 20 pupils. For pupils over 11 one toilet per 20 pupils would be sufficient, but there is scope to reduce the number of washbasins where the washing facilities are shared. 5

General planning
Toilet facilities need to be planned and designed so that:

a) hand washing facilities are provided within or in the immediate vicinity of every toilet;

b) the rooms containing them are adequately ventilated and lit;

c) they are located in areas around the school that provide easy access for pupils and allow for informal supervision by staff, without compromising pupils’ privacy.

Where there is unisex provision (under ISS 23A (1) (b) or SPR 4 (2)), the privacy of the occupant needs to be ensured and this will be achieved by, for example, having adequate enclosure and a full height door.

Facilities for disabled pupils
Each toilet for disabled pupils needs to contain one toilet and one washbasin (and possibly a shower or other wash down fitting) and have a door opening directly onto a circulation space that is not a staircase and which can be secured from the inside. Where possible, the number and location of accessible toilets will be sufficient to ensure a reasonable travel distance for users that does not involve changing floor levels 5.

Changing accommodation and showers for pupils
It is preferable for showers to be in areas separated from toilets and they need to provide adequate privacy. Consideration may also be given to providing changing rooms, with or without showers, at primary schools for pupils who need to wear sports kit for physical education, but this is not required under the regulations.

Toilets and washing facilities or staff
Toilets and washing facilities for staff6 may be also be used by visitors. They should be separate from those provided for pupils, except where they are designed for use by those who are disabled.

5 The requirements of Part M of the Building Regulations will be satisfied if any wheelchair user does not have to travel more than 40m horizontally to reach an accessible toilet. With young pupils the travel distance may need to be less.

6 Regulations 20 and 21 of the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 set out the standards for staff toilets and washing facilities."

TheBiologyStupid · 01/03/2023 14:14

oldwomanwhoruns · 01/03/2023 14:05

I think that Safe Schools Alliance have some good standard letters?

Yes, the link is here: safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/letter-templates/#Mixed-sex_Toilets_letter

JemimaTiggywinkles · 01/03/2023 14:30

most alarmingly, opened from the outside of the door

The need to be openable from the outside for safety - particularly if you have a fully enclosed room rather than a stall. Ideally you'd want them to be openable with a key though, rather than a 2p coin (which is certainly possible on many).

Honestly, the best solution to all of the problems is to have girls toilets, boys toilets, and a few mixed-sex individual room type toilets. Plus sufficient staffing in schools and CCTV in all corridors. It is an expensive solution though.

FebName · 01/03/2023 14:30

Shame on us for letting our children down. The future will judge this period of history.

Whenever we get one step closer to more people seeing the light, it's then10 steps back.

Unfortunately it will only be when a huge safeguarding incident takes place publicity, will politicians and the like take notice.

nilsmousehammer · 01/03/2023 14:57

At a time when school refusal is rocketing and many, many kids are too anxious to face the hell of school, wtf make it less accessible and more stressful?

Gender neutral loos can be provided. Proportional to the population. Single enclosed cubicle. Everyone else gets left in peace.

Possibly kids will get more attention from these nut jobs than adults do: but I suspect kids will discover that the nutjobs only attentively listen to and passionately care about inclusion and feelings and kindness when it specifically props up their personal hobby horses.

lifeturnsonadime · 01/03/2023 15:00

At a time when school refusal is rocketing and many, many kids are too anxious to face the hell of school, wtf make it less accessible and more stressful?

Entirely down to the genderists, the likes of Mermaids and Stonewall making out that children who aren't fully treated as the sex they identify into are going to be suicidal.

They will be seen as the 'greatest risk'. The other children are just collateral damage.

nilsmousehammer · 01/03/2023 15:07

"Yes darling, I know you can absolutely consent to extreme surgery with lifetime consequences, to ending your fertility and chance of having a child and of ever enjoying sex, and to underaged sex, because you know your mind and feelings and absolutely understand what youre doing.... but when it comes to wanting privacy and dignity, and to have the right to say no to a male watch you undress, I'm afraid Stonewall knows best.

Why?

Well there's no pleasure or benefit to some adults in you saying no about those things."

TheBiologyStupid · 01/03/2023 16:11

FebName · 01/03/2023 14:30

Shame on us for letting our children down. The future will judge this period of history.

Whenever we get one step closer to more people seeing the light, it's then10 steps back.

Unfortunately it will only be when a huge safeguarding incident takes place publicity, will politicians and the like take notice.

It's already known that there is at least one rape in schools every day, so I'm not sure what more we need to wait for:

"In 2015, the police responded to an FOI request and reported that nearly 4,000 alleged physical sexual assaults and more than 600 rapes in schools had been reported in the preceding 3 years."
www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-sexual-abuse-in-schools-and-colleges/review-of-sexual-abuse-in-schools-and-colleges

Artisticpaint · 01/03/2023 16:21

sex-matters.org/posts/publications/toilets-matter-a-short-guide-to-law-and-good-practice/
sex matters have guidance on toilet facilities

Artisticpaint · 01/03/2023 16:24

sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Toilets-matter.pdf
here’s a direct link to six matters guidance on toilet provision.
it is legal and in accordance with the Equality Act.

RichardBarrister · 01/03/2023 16:25

Rememberal · 01/03/2023 11:57

In my DDs school they get around this by providing ONE single sex toilet however it's on the other side of the building and is locked during lessons. The girls queue around the corner at breaks and lunch for it...

Yes, as I was going through the complaints process our school triumphantly ooh Ted out the the min number of toilets provided (1 toilet per 20 students) is only ‘guidance’ so they can have one toilet for the whole school if they choose. As it is they have half the recommended number and 2 female only, 3 male only (as it includes 2 urinals).

Schools know what the intention of the law is but have decided to weasel their way through, twisting the words and meanings and ignore the need for single sex provision. This is mainly to cater for trans students, of which we have about 3 - there were already 4 proper unisex toilets in just the main building!!

No one cares at all about the girls (and the boys) who hate them.

RichardBarrister · 01/03/2023 16:25

Pointed out 🙄

dimorphism · 01/03/2023 16:35

nilsmousehammer · 01/03/2023 14:57

At a time when school refusal is rocketing and many, many kids are too anxious to face the hell of school, wtf make it less accessible and more stressful?

Gender neutral loos can be provided. Proportional to the population. Single enclosed cubicle. Everyone else gets left in peace.

Possibly kids will get more attention from these nut jobs than adults do: but I suspect kids will discover that the nutjobs only attentively listen to and passionately care about inclusion and feelings and kindness when it specifically props up their personal hobby horses.

Yep.

My experience with attendance is that there are targets that parents are supposed to magically reach but if you point out actual, real, reasons your child needs to be off (e.g. medical) and things the school could do to help minimise time off, you're met with a blank stare.

However I think specifying you need single sex toilets to improve your daughter's attendance if they do stay off during their periods would be an important thing to raise.

Thank you to those posting the SSA links. I fortunately don't need this as yet (and hope I never will). I'd be happy to support parents and children less fortunate whose schools are breaking the law wherever possible.

I do think the rigid requirements around parental complaints seem designed to prevent parents from raising important issues and mobilising as a group in some cases. I'd be interested in hearing from teachers about this I know there are some on MN.

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 01/03/2023 16:52

TheBiologyStupid · Today 16:11

"In 2015, the police responded to an FOI request and reported that nearly 4,000 alleged physical sexual assaults and more than 600 rapes in schools had been reported in the preceding 3 years."

Hell! I had absolutely no idea about that; I don't recall any news about it locally. And I've just been having a, "You can decide again at the end of the year," conversation with my daughter, about her Jiu Jitsu lessons.

SomersetONeil · 01/03/2023 17:00

midgemadgemodge · 01/03/2023 12:49

Yes but boys do better in mixed schools - think of the boys please, they are so much more important to our future than girls

( there may be an element of sarcasm there )

So let people have the choice.

My DS goes to a co-ed school and my DD to a single sex one. I acknowledge and embrace the double standard.

If some people prefer their daughters go to co-ed schools, that’s all good as it’s their choice.

Not to derail the thread, but I agree with a pp that this is, in part, why DD goes to a single sex school. I went to one myself, and not having to deal with hormonal boys when trying to learn is refreshing.

SomersetONeil · 01/03/2023 17:03

Not to mention having unfettered access to single sex spaces.

Serrassi · 01/03/2023 17:56

I support the protests.

I’ve raised concerns aboutnother issues with school in the past and the head always saw her job as to soothe me. The idea of actually listening and changing what the school did was, to her, incomprehensible.

Some schools treat children like prison inmates. 😔

Serrassi · 01/03/2023 18:02

FebName · 01/03/2023 14:30

Shame on us for letting our children down. The future will judge this period of history.

Whenever we get one step closer to more people seeing the light, it's then10 steps back.

Unfortunately it will only be when a huge safeguarding incident takes place publicity, will politicians and the like take notice.

It’s an interesting reminder that the battle to physically protect women and girls (particularly girls) from perverts, and to provide them with education and opportunity, has to be fought over and over again, at least every generation. I thought England was pretty civilised, lived my life quietly without getting involved in politics, and now I see English girls can’t go to school during their periods like we’re in rural Nepal, is shocking.

SomersetONeil · 01/03/2023 18:11

Serrassi · 01/03/2023 18:02

It’s an interesting reminder that the battle to physically protect women and girls (particularly girls) from perverts, and to provide them with education and opportunity, has to be fought over and over again, at least every generation. I thought England was pretty civilised, lived my life quietly without getting involved in politics, and now I see English girls can’t go to school during their periods like we’re in rural Nepal, is shocking.

And somehow, we’re the BIGOTS for having a problem with that.