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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie Parker featured in Hope Not Hate's State of Hate 2023.

72 replies

IwantToRetire · 27/02/2023 16:48

In section 6 Anti-LGBT+ Section hopenothate.org.uk/2023/02/26/state-of-hate-2023-rhetoric-racism-and-resentment/

As you can imagine that insane group Actual Gender Critical Left (basically a tiny group of 3 or 4 women who think they are intellectual giants) are revellling in this.

As AGCL has been one of the main sources of smears and misrepresentation against PP they must feel they have achieved their aims. Note the comments from those who are also part of WPUK. www.facebook.com/groups/904109420071073/posts/1571864919962183/

OP posts:
AbsolutePixels · 02/03/2023 01:13

Read the report. A ridiculous grab bag of anyone and everyone who happens to disagree with 'the current thing'. Should be called Hype not Hate.

JarByTheDoor · 02/03/2023 02:13

It frustrates me that "hate" as a term has been diluted a hell of a lot so it can be spread further and wider.

It's a useful term when it's important to recognise, for example, that the person making claims may be motivated by such extreme, perhaps even irrational dislike as to make what they say very unreliable, or that they might wish to deliberately cause serious harm to people.

But I don't think it counts intrinsically as hate to believe things like, I dunno, God created women as a counterpart to men, they're weaker and less suited to intellectual work than men, so are more suited to caring for a husband and nurturing a family, even if they think they'd like a career. Or that more open immigration rules can be harmful to lower-paid local workers and to existing social cohesion and valued cultural norms, so immigration should be strictly limited. Or that being gay is likely to lead to an unhappy life, and telling young people that homosexuality exists will make them more likely to become gay. Saying things like this can be motivated by or result in hate, but not necessarily.

They might be woefully incorrect, ignorant of the world outside their bubble, or motivated by self-interest, or they might say insulting or hurtful or dangerous things, or campaign for things that will result in terrible harm, or all of the above. But it's possible for all those things to be true, and for people to hold all kinds of views that get called "hate", and there be no actual hate involved.

The person involved may sincerely think that they're on the side of good, and that what they want will prevent or reduce suffering and harm. (And, of course, there may be people who believe other things who are accused of being motivated by hate, who are not only well-meaning, but also right in their assessment of the situation.) You can cause terrible harm without hate, and you can cause terrible harm with hate, and I think they probably need different approaches.

Nobody will be persuaded by being told they're motivated by hate when they know for a fact they feel no hate, and only want to e.g. protect children from unwittingly choosing a life of sadness by deciding to be gay. There's a possibility you might persuade them if you show them that they've been misled, that there are many happy gay people, that a lot of any unhappiness was because of how society was set up, and that there's excellent evidence that you can't choose the parameters of your sexual orientation and that fighting against it causes real suffering.

Calling "hate" when there's no evidence of actual hate will just make people entrench and dismiss any other part of the argument against them. And I think that people on the sidelines looking on may start to take accusations of hate less seriously, too, because it gets used so much in situations that don't appear to have anything to do with a normal everyday interpretation of the word "hate". That's a problem because there is plenty of genuine hate, and when it's identified it needs to be taken seriously.

AbsolutePixels · 02/03/2023 02:34

@JarByTheDoor I agree with the main thrust of what you're saying, but they use this smear tactic because it's effective. It puts such topics outside the ken of decent, respectable society and makes ordinary people frightened of discussing them in case they are similarly smeared. Being featured in this reports also has real, tangible consequences: people are made examples of, lose their livelihoods etc and that also contributes to the culture of fear. Luckily Posie doesn't have a job to lose and is totally brave and resolute, so these cry-bullies can GTFO.

JarByTheDoor · 02/03/2023 02:58

Yep I agree it's an effective tactic, and I understand why they're using it and think their misapplication of "hate" is despicable — it's just that I think the damage is also longer-term and broader. IMO it would be a short-sighted decision to take that route if you genuinely cared about tackling harm and hate. I'm concerned that the more the general public see it used about things where they either agree with the statements, or disagree but see no hate, the less power the word will eventually have, which I think is a bad thing.

PorcelinaV · 02/03/2023 08:08

It's also maybe a bit hypocritical because there is plenty of real "hate" from their fellow travellers, and even violence. Also combined with the idea that their opponents don't deserve the ability to speak. Of course in their minds they think their hatred is righteous so that's OK.

JarByTheDoor · 02/03/2023 08:48

I've seen real revelling in virtuous hate on places like Reddit. Once got in an argument there with people who were saying that Nazis aren't human beings, are less than animals, don't qualify for human rights, and deserve to be tortured, with posters taking obvious pleasure in talking about the things they'd do to Nazis, and that's… I mean, look. I hate Nazism, we all (I hope) hate Nazism, and that's good positive hate and is what hate is for. The original Nazis would've killed me and considered it sanitation.

But it's not only a bit ironic to argue that, because they're not fully human, it's positively noble to glory in the idea of torturing Nazis, it also can't be good for you to learn to actually gain pleasure from thinking and talking about how you'd act out your hate on people. And it's not good for society when there are movements which feature competitive virtuous hate as a means of demonstrating affiliation.

It's the same virtuous hate phenomenon that's directed at gammons and Karens and Brexiteers and especially TERFs. My political side likes to pretend we're completely different to the extreme far-right lot, that they hate based on things people can't help whereas we hate bad ideas, bad choices, cruelty and injustice, but when personalised and savoured it's satisfying the same impulses.

I hate to drag out the Aldous Huxley quote again but it fits: The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone. To be able to destroy with good conscience, to be able to behave badly and call your bad behavior 'righteous indignation' — this is the height of psychological luxury, the most delicious of moral treats.

TheBiologyStupid · 02/03/2023 10:18

JarByTheDoor · 02/03/2023 02:58

Yep I agree it's an effective tactic, and I understand why they're using it and think their misapplication of "hate" is despicable — it's just that I think the damage is also longer-term and broader. IMO it would be a short-sighted decision to take that route if you genuinely cared about tackling harm and hate. I'm concerned that the more the general public see it used about things where they either agree with the statements, or disagree but see no hate, the less power the word will eventually have, which I think is a bad thing.

Agreed - and with your longer post, too. The overuse of "transphobia" is the same - the genuine thing is abhorrent and needs tackling, the "someone looked at me in a brazen way" (the subject of a recent thread here) not so much.

DerekFaker · 02/03/2023 12:22

Totally agree, and would add 'nazi', 'facist', 'genocide' and 'bigot' to the list.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 02/03/2023 15:00

JarByTheDoor - agree so much with your posts. You have articulated something really well that I have been worrying about for a long time.

JarByTheDoor · 02/03/2023 17:28

Countess it's wonderful to have somewhere I can post this sort of ramble to try and sort through what I think and bounce it off other people, with a fairly low likelihood of responses along the lines of "So you're literally saying you support misogynist racist homophobes. Guess I should've expected it when you finally went full-on Nazi-defender — welp, figures. Educate yourself, do better, then die in a grease fire anyway 🥰 Blocked and reported 😘"

I think Pixels is totally right that this kind of hate accusation is an attempt to sway third parties rather than the accused, a way to make the target seem irrational and motivated by a character defect, to discredit the ideas themselves as arising from prejudice and hostility, and to make it feel socially dangerous to even try to understand the target's ideas let alone consider their merits or discuss them with others. And she's also right that it's very effective for that aim of discrediting opponents, suppressing discussion, and preventing people realising that others share their secret and purportedly heterodox views.

Even for issues where I'm on the same side as these people, I find it frustrating and wish they'd stop attributing hate without evidence of hate. As well as the dilution of the meaning and impact, and the provocation of entrenchment/prevention of engagement between those of opposing views, another harm that I see mentioned here so frequently is the psychological harm it does to the people they're supposedly defending. Being constantly told how much otherwise nice, ordinary-seeming people secretly hate you and want you gone has to cause some sort of damage.

I know that's nothing new, I just… sometimes I feel like I have to type these things because if I don't I'll go mad.

WarriorN · 05/03/2023 19:17

I thought we were the Prosecco storefront 🤣

Posie Parker featured in Hope Not Hate's State of Hate 2023.
WarriorN · 05/03/2023 19:18

StorMfront obvs 🙄

Boiledbeetle · 05/03/2023 21:58

WarriorN · 05/03/2023 19:17

I thought we were the Prosecco storefront 🤣

But but but I'm tea total.I only drink pretend gin on here. I don't actually consume alcohol. (I'm too busy doing drugs).

BezMills · 07/03/2023 08:00

Chardonnay taliban, it has a nice ring to it.

dimorphism · 07/03/2023 09:25

WarriorN · 05/03/2023 19:17

I thought we were the Prosecco storefront 🤣

The Darvo in calling middle aged women with caring responsibilities who nevertheless are trying to speak up about women's rights and child safeguarding anything to do with the 'Taliban' is off the charts.

I still can't get over how so many are trying to peddle that a load of overworked, tired, middle aged women (mostly, with nods to our younger sheroes) are suddenly, on one issue alone, aligning with the Taliban / Nazis.

It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny and is utterly ridiculous.

Mums of 4 generally don't get sucked into far right conspiracy theories, they're too busy and they're not stuck in their basement on the internet, they have too much school uniform to wash, packed lunches to make and school admin to do (the endless, endless forms / payments etc). Does no-one think that maybe it's Posie's lived experience of having kids brainwashed in school that has lead her to her opinion? Because that's definitely it.

I'm beginning to think that anyone claiming someone else is 'phobic' / 'racist' / 'bigoted' or 'spewing hate' if they can't actually provide facts and evidence is just a bit thick and - ironically - trying to stir up hatred themselves.

WarriorN · 07/03/2023 09:33

I'm beginning to think that anyone claiming someone else is 'phobic' / 'racist' / 'bigoted' or 'spewing hate' if they can't actually provide facts and evidence is just a bit thick and - ironically - trying to stir up hatred themselves.

Well it's name calling and not effective debate. It stalls debate and is designed to shame. It's coercive and abusive.

The whole ideology is based in the abuse and dominance of women.

WarriorN · 07/03/2023 09:37

There's also a difference between name calling and labelling behaviour- by all means say we are being bigoted but that requires an explanation and then a reasoned debate. Back up your claims.

When you slap a negative name on someone it's like putting them in the public stocks, designed to humiliate.

BezMills · 07/03/2023 09:42

It's kind of ludicrous really that people are going to call women extremists and Taleban for saying no to men when there are people actually living under the Taleban. It's like wait what? What kind of screamingly privileged nonsense-thinking leads to calling your mum Gender Critical Feminism the Taleban?

For example - Yon tall fellow with the fishnet accessorising in George Square the other day. The one who scared himself and then cried about it on MN couldn't withstand a brief paddington stare from someone a foot and a half shorter than him. Absolute joke, honestly.

TheBiologyStupid · 07/03/2023 11:29

Talking about the Taliban, their latest shenanigans are shocking: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4756589-thousands-of-afghan-women-in-peril-as-taliban-voids-their-divorces-experts-say

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 07/03/2023 11:34

I have just finished Victoria Smith’s absolutely excellent new book, Hags, and she talks brilliantly about the way extreme labels function to make people who know nothing about it assume the people labelled must have said or done really really bad things. They are very effective ways to stigmatise people.

WarriorN · 07/03/2023 12:28

TheBiologyStupid · 07/03/2023 11:29

Christ it's awful :(

WarriorN · 07/03/2023 12:29

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 07/03/2023 11:34

I have just finished Victoria Smith’s absolutely excellent new book, Hags, and she talks brilliantly about the way extreme labels function to make people who know nothing about it assume the people labelled must have said or done really really bad things. They are very effective ways to stigmatise people.

That's interesting and very apt

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