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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How to reply to DD?

39 replies

Louise57 · 23/02/2023 01:59

I was talking to DD about this (after learning this www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4748604-lia-thomas-loses-record)

She's not trans obsessed but isnt GC either and doesnt always agree with common sense for example this: She said that trans are actually underrepresented(!!!) in sports. She said that "if performance was the same between trans and normal people and there was no advantage and trans make up 1/200 of the population wouldnt you expect to have 1/200 first place go to trans?" She also tried to say some statistics about how trans should be seen in every few races or something but she didnt really explain that bit too well but the point was that "trans are underrepresented by population and that the occasional good trans sportsperson should be expected and isnt evidence of an overwhelming advantage"

DD is usually quite good at this statistics stuff (she just graduated in maths) and we usually agree on everything but I didnt really have a good answer to this at the time and tried to change the topic but I feel that the conversation is still weighing in the air. Am I just getting bogged down in the statistics of it? what can I say to explain to her that that isnt all there is to it?

She said that this was all for the point of argument but to be honest I have my doubts given what she argued (i.e. I think shes more sympathetic to the TRA cause than she lets on around me, even though I havent "come out" as GC).

OP posts:
MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 23/02/2023 02:03

She said that "if performance was the same between trans and normal people and there was no advantage

But performance isn't the same. Transwomen do have an advantage over women. So that's not a valid argument.

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 23/02/2023 02:26

Have you pointed out that lots of males transition in later life so were not transwomen until their performance was
in age related decline?

eg 40something male Laurel Hubbard competes against older teens/early 20s women.

Louise57 · 23/02/2023 02:31

No but I did say that they always have bigger bodies and she asked "how do you know that carrying around a bigger skeleton with less muscles isnt a disadvantage" I had no answer and felt humiliated.

I expect with her statistics brain DD would want to see more than the odd example honestly. she just doesnt understand that even one trans competitor taints the competition.

OP posts:
Whatsnewpussyhat · 23/02/2023 02:45

The male advantage never goes.

Ask her why she thinks female sports should be made mixed sex just to accommodate some men who could compete in their own sex class.

One man taking a spot or medal from a woman is one too many.

PretzelKnot · 23/02/2023 02:55

This is the website you want.

boysvswomen.com/#/

PretzelKnot · 23/02/2023 02:59

And this photo and this easily digested meme.

  1. the US World champion mixed swimming team.
  2. Stats meme
How to reply to DD?
How to reply to DD?
Helleofabore · 23/02/2023 03:51

I would suggest then that she read these studies (sorry that I haven’t got time to add highlights.)

Lundberg and Hilton

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

Harper (same conclusions)

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

Helleofabore · 23/02/2023 03:53

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329

Timothy A Roberts, Joshua Smalley, Dale Ahrendt

Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators

Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.

It is interesting reading as it also leaves the suggestion that even after 3 years advantage still exists.

And Sean Ingle’s take on it.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

Helleofabore · 23/02/2023 03:56

This is a new Brazilian study

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2022/09/01/bjsports-2021-105400.info

Cardiopulmonary capacity and muscle strength in transgender women on long-term gender-affirming hormone therapy: a cross-sectional study

Leonardo Azevedo Mobilia Alvares, Marcelo Rodrigues Santos, Francis Ribeiro Souza, Lívia Marcela Santos, Berenice Bilharinho de Mendonça, Elaine Maria Frade Costa, Maria Janieire Nazaré Nunes Alves, Sorahia Domenice

Conclusion
In this small cohort of non-athlete TW, who were previously exposed to male pubertal development and underwent long-term oestrogen therapy, we identified higher grip strength and VO2 peak levels than in non-athlete CW, but these same parameters were lower compared with non-athlete CM.

These findings add new insights to the sparse information available on a highly controversial topic about the participation of TW in physical activities. Future studies involving transgender athletes that account for and quantify variable exposure times to pubertal development and assess muscle cell metabolism are needed to elucidate the effects of long-term GAHT on TW sports performance.

and this commentary from Ross Tucker (sorry no formatting)

From Ross Tucker on this study above:

Over a decade (14.4 yrs average) of T-suppression, and TW have VO2max 20% higher, grip strength 19% higher & skeletal mass 40% than women. More evidence that male biology persists long after T is removed. Another piece of the same puzzle, albeit from a cross-sectional study.

The cross-sectional bit is important - the study hasn't (like over a dozen others) tracked people from Day zero onwards, so the differences are a 'snapshot' rather than a 'movie', if that makes sense? Means you don't know how those TW began, 14.4 yrs earlier, but the finding of quite large differences compared to women (20% or more) is striking, because a) they either began as typically representative of males, and lost some, but retained significant advantages vs women, or b) they began well below men, and lost hardly any advantages. In either case, the end point, over a decade later, is biological differences compared to women that will create performance implications. Of interest, the mass retention and VO2max advantage mean that relative VO2max (ml/kg/min) ends up similar, which means in some sports (weight-determined) the performance implication may differ - sometimes very large, sometimes smaller, as in some categories within endurance sports.

But zero? Unlikely, because cardio function, FFM & strength are greater. Important paper, showing striking biological 'persistence' 14 yrs on.
Two further thoughts on the study. First, the TW vs women differences in muscle mass and strength remain large (20%) after more than a decade of T suppression. One year vs ten, biology "persists". Second, add training to the mix and TW and women would obviously get stronger.

You could TRY to argue that women would get stronger relatively more than TW (you'd have a job on your hands to explain why this would be, but anyway). More likely is that the differences - TW vs women - would persist or even increase with the addition of training. What this study confirms is that non-trained TW retain biological differences with performance implications after 14 years of T suppression. You'd have to believe that W could make up these gaps with training to believe in fairness in sport. That is, trained W = non-trained TW = fair!

(all that was from Ross Tucker)

Helleofabore · 23/02/2023 03:57

This is an interesting discussion and has Dr Handelmann as a speaker too.

Helleofabore · 23/02/2023 03:59

this might also help

idrottsforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/devineetal221129.pdf

"When Ideology Trumps Science: A response to the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport’s Review on Transwomen Athletes in the Female Category"

Cathy Devine, Emma Hilton, Leslie Howe, Miroslav Imbrišević, Tommy Lundberg, Jon Pike

Independent Scholar; University of Manchester; University of Saskatchewan; Open University (UK); Karolinska Institutet

29 November 2022

Helleofabore · 23/02/2023 04:02

A new study released 14th December 2022 from Nederlands and Denmark.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36534950/

Lisanne H P Houben, Maarten Overkamp, Puck van Kraaij, Jorn Trommelen, Joep G H van Roermund, Peter de Vries, Kevin de Laet, Saskia van der Meer, Ulla R Mikkelsen, Lex B Verdijk, Luc J C van Loon, Sandra Beijer, Milou Beelen

Abstract

Purpose: To assess the effects of 20 weeks resistance exercise training with or without protein supplementation on body composition, muscle mass, muscle strength, physical performance and aerobic capacity in prostate cancer patients receiving androgen deprivation therapy (ADT).

Methods: Sixty prostate cancer patients receiving ADT were randomly assigned to perform 20 weeks of resistance exercise training with supplementation of 31 g whey protein (EX+PRO, n = 30) or placebo (EX+PLA, n = 30), consumed immediately after exercise and every night before sleep. A separate control group (CON, n = 36) only received usual care. At baseline and after 20 weeks, body composition (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry), muscle mass (computed tomography scan), muscle strength (1-repetition maximum strength tests), physical performance (Timed Up and Go Test, 30-second Chair Stand Test, Stair Climb Test), aerobic capacity (cardiopulmonary exercise test) and habitual dietary intake (food diary), were assessed. Data were analyzed using a two-factor repeated-measures ANOVA.

Results: Over time, muscle mass and strength increased in EX+PRO and EX+PLA and decreased in CON. Total fat mass and fat percentage increased in EX+PRO and CON, but not in EX+PLA. Physical performance did not significantly change over time in either group. Aerobic capacity was maintained in EX+PLA, while it decreased in EX+PRO and CON. Habitual protein intake (without supplements) averaged >1.0 g·kg body weight-1·day-1, with no differences over time or between groups.

Conclusions: In prostate cancer patients, resistance exercise training counteracts the adverse effects of ADT on body composition, muscle mass, muscle strength and aerobic capacity, with no additional benefits of protein supplementation

Helleofabore · 23/02/2023 04:06

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00948705.2023.2167720

Meaningful competition paper by Jon Pike

Why ‘Meaningful Competition’ is not fair competition

6th Feb 2023

ABSTRACT

In this paper I discuss a new conception that has arrived relatively recently on the scene, in the context of the debate over the inclusion of transwomen (hereafter TW) in female sport. That conception is ‘Meaningful Competition’ (hereafter MC) – a term used by some of those who advocate for the inclusion of TW in female sport if and only if they reduce their testosterone levels. I will argue that MC is not fair. I understand MC as a substitute concept, as an attempt to substitute for the perfectly serviceable concept of fair competition. It is an attempt at conceptual engineering that should be resisted. This is important because some International Federations have accepted MC as good coin, and the underlying theory of MC, which I explicate for the first time, underpins the stance taken by the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in its Framework Document. To establish that the inclusion of TW in female sport meets the criteria of MC in the sense I explicate here, does not show that the inclusion of TW in female sport is fair. Such inclusion is not fair, and the proper currency of sport is fair competition. ‘Meaningful Competition’, on the other hand, is a snare and a delusion.

Helleofabore · 23/02/2023 04:40

Sorry OP. There may be no way that your daughter will take the time to read these. And I have posted a lot, but the reality is your daughter is determined to over look the major points.

Males into female sports events is about them accessing a category they don’t belong in.

Simply put there is no evidence that reducing testosterone brings male performance down to the female level of performance. And that Danish study shows that with training that loss of performance due to testosterone can be reversed. Even somewhat.

Even Joanne Harper acknowledges that the advantage retained is unfair in many sports. And that is a researcher that seems quite desperate to prove otherwise.

So if a male in the weakest quartile (25%) is still stronger than 90% of women how is that fair.

As Ross Tucker likes to say Testosterone is like a motor on a cycle competing in the Tour de France. A mediocre athlete might not win the Tour de France with a motor on their bicycle, was it fair for that person to compete?

And then ask your Daughter what other category should accept people from outside the category.

Should a sighted person compete with blind athletes if they identify as blind?

Should a 25 year old compete in the under 14’s if they identify as a child?

Should a 25 year old compete in the over 85 year old Masters category if they identify as 86 years old?

Should a professional athlete compete as a novice?

Should an athlete born in the UK with parents who are born in the UK with all the advantages of sports access and still living in the UK, compete in a sport representing Samoa and exclude a Samoan person?

Your daughter is right in one aspect. Trans people are ‘underrepresented’ in sport. That is a choice though. Choosing to take drugs that are either performance enhancing or limiting is a choice that many sports people have. Trans people are no different to a person who has to make a hard decision about their health that might exclude them from sport. Why are they any different?

Trans people should be encouraged to participate in sport in their sex categories unless they take performance enhancing drugs (testosterone). They absolutely should be better represented - in their sex categories. I suspect she thinks they should be represented in their gender which is not fair for male people to compete in female categories .

Helleofabore · 23/02/2023 05:05

Your daughter can argue all she likes about the philosophical side of inclusion, but the biology does not change.

The male skeleton has differences that cannot be reversed. The bone density and strength for one. The ratios of different bones between male and female skeletons meaning different balance and leverage. Hips are a huge difference, particularly in running or cycling. The movement capability is different and can mean the difference between winning or not. The Q angles become very important in elite performance.

Even Hand size is significant in some sports from rugby to snooker and the ability to create a bridge.

So, “she asked "how do you know that carrying around a bigger skeleton with less muscles isnt a disadvantage"” is a point often brought up.

But that ‘less muscle’ is often due to a trans person’s choice to change training to shape their body. (And sorry???? Which other people are rewarded in moving to a category where they can win for choosing body shape over peak performance unless it is a weight division in the appropriate category for sex, age etc). That ‘loss of muscle’ can be shown in a couple of different studies to be largely regained with training.

And that muscle loss doesn’t change the other advantages in a skeleton.

Good luck OP. But considering this is a raging discussion, an Olympic level discussion in fact, there is only so much you can expect to reach an agreement on at this time.

greenspaces4peace · 23/02/2023 05:53

TW will forever have bigger hearts, lungs and higher bone density.
Testosterone is a banned substance in olympic sports so you will never see a TM in a men’s event.

VoodooQualities · 23/02/2023 06:13

Are you sure you want to dig deeper and start showing all these websites and research papers to her?

I think I'd just close the conversation with a snappy one line response and then let her research it further if she wants to. From what you've said it sounds like this isn't something she cares particularly about or has thought much about.

--Funny how you never see transmen wanting to compete against men though isn't it, I wonder why that might be
--Yeah well you can't undo a male puberty can you, those transwomen are always going to be a foot taller and two stone heavier
--OK love, I suppose your right. Well let's hope you and your daughters aren't the unlucky ones that find yourselves up against the 1 in 200 then, and miss out on the medal, the fame and the sponsorship deals eh.

Whatwouldscullydo · 23/02/2023 06:14

You could just ask her if she thinks its fair that men/males have mens sports. And that womens sports is now mixed sex. How does she think its fair that there's mens and mixed but no women's sports any more.

AlisonDonut · 23/02/2023 06:17

Ask her if she can work out which of the young ladies in this pic is a man in his 50s.

How to reply to DD?
HagoftheNorth · 23/02/2023 06:28

There’s quite a few clips around showing examples of transwomen in women’s sport. One trans ice hockey match and one volleyball match immediately come to mind - in both cases a female player is knocked out (unintentionally) because of the strength of an opposing male player. Then there was the skull fracture in MMA, and the pic of Lia Thomas diving against the girls. Then there was the unforgettable ‘she can fold them up like deckchairs’ said of a transwoman playing in women’s league IIRC rugby - def a contact sport.

Nellodee · 23/02/2023 06:40

As a teacher, I’m not seeing it being the sporty kids who are coming out as trans. She’s assuming that the distribution of trans kids is random across all other attributes and it isn’t. Trans kids are also much more likely to have mental health issues. Having good mental health is important in being able to maintain a rigorous training regime. Being trans and being good at sports are not independent events.

JacquelinePot · 23/02/2023 06:53

I'm not really clear on what her argument is. Is she saying men in women's sports isn't a problem because it (currently) seems to happen at a lower lever than you would expect for the incidence of the population?

What does she think trans is? And how does one become a "transwoman"? Does she understand that they are men, most dont have surgery and even those who take hormones still usually have higher testosterone than women? You might be talking at crossed purposes.

Does she accept that men are statistically bigger, faster and stronger on average, than woman?

What makes a "transwoman" different to man, that would allow him in the women's sport?

If she's into stats, why not flip her position? For every one in a women's football team that's 1 woman who lost a place, and 10 others who have to share a changing room with a man and 11 others who have to play a team that includes a man. Multiply that by all the other teams they play in a season. How many women does that one trans person impact? Is she happy with that calculation?

DworkinWasRight · 23/02/2023 06:59

The mistake is the word trans. What we’re talking about is men competing against women.

Ask her where the trans men competing in men’s sport are.

Helleofabore · 23/02/2023 07:03

”Are you sure you want to dig deeper and start showing all these websites and research papers to her?”

OP didn’t ask for them, I offered them up. OP may very well not look at anything I posted.

I suspect that OP’s daughter knows more about this because of her comment about muscles and skeletons. These just give OP options and they can read up for next time if they are that interested in the topic. Even just read the conclusions and mention that they were interested and looked and couldn’t find any studies that show the advantages are lost (because there isn’t one that is credible) but OP did come across lots that said the opposite.

And there are the papers linked there with plenty of discussion points covered for people who are newer to the discussion.

The video is an Australian programme that presented a balance of speakers across academia and sports. Including Dr Handelsman, a testosterone specialist, and Mianne Bagger a male golfer who was responsible for the change in Golf regulations. It is an interesting watch even for people who are well up on the topic.

It is up to the OP how to work out how they approach their daughter.

I mean, if it was me, I would probably leave it as it was my daughter and soon enough there will be enough studies that will mean those talking points of OP’s daughter’s will sort themselves out. Well, I hope that those studies are coming….

Ndd135632 · 23/02/2023 07:03

I believe Sharron Davies has a very well researched book on this coming out very soon with all the statistics you will want

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