Question Time. Two (at least) GC panellists, is this unprecedented.

[Mochudubh]

I missed the beginning but came back in to hear Lionel Shriver say Nicola Sturgeon had to go because the GRR bill was deeply unpopular. Ruth Wishart explicitly agreed with Lionel's stance, just taking issue with Lionel's use of the word "girly" to describe NS excuse of "tired".

I remember the Robert Winston QT from a few months ago when he stated that humans can't change sex and Fiona Bruce said something like "many experts would disagree". To the man who probably knows more about women's bodies than any other man on the planet! We seem to have moved on a fair bit since then.

I really hope the momentum keeps up on this and the tide really had turned.

Yeah she made a massive fool of herself over that. Massive. She's beyond help.

Fiona Bruce is giving a vibe, like Alex Forsyth on Any Questions, of controlling the questioning and answering to steer things to fit in with an established narrative. Forsyth in particular seems ready to jump in to terminate an answer heading in a direction she wants to avoid. Maybe it's because she's relatively new and things will improve.

But having seen the wheels come off the gender identity ideology bus to some degree, I think there will be a soft fight-back by some at the BBC to prop it up, and this might be an example of it.

I agree that the ‘genital inspection’ argument is infuriating.

The fact is that it should not be at all socially acceptable for any adult human male to be using the female toilets. To the extent that genital inspections should not even be a consideration.

People with penises and small gametes should simply not even be considering using the women’s facilities because only people with extremely problematic motives would seek to do so.

Instead they’ve somehow managed to creat a situation where it is unacceptable to question the motives of these people. And women who object are painted as weirdos obsessed with other people’s genitals. It’s actual gaslighting.

And always we end up back at the 'what is a woman' question - which trans people usually refuse to answer. We need a definition which includes biological women (including the swathes who do not identify as a woman) and men who wish they were women. A proper definition which shows some common characteristic and which differentiates them from all other men. Why can't this be provided? If it can't be, I take that as an admission that basically some people want the 'category' to be 'actual woman and any man who wishes he was a woman'.

Wow - she said that to Prof Winston when he stated a biological fact.

I hope that things are changing and the handmaidens and the pervs and men who want to say they are women are not allowed to run over women anymore. The BBC need to be pushed back - how on earth can people not understand that sex cannot be changed since it is a biological fact but if someone wishes to live as a different gender then so be it but don't pretend they are real women/men.

What is a woman? Someone who was born female.

What is a trans woman? Someone who was born male and choses to assume the gender of a woman but can never be a biological woman.

Reword for man.

Trans is short for transitioning - the thing is you cannot transition from being a woman to a man or vice versus in reality since no matter how many bits you cut off or add you are not a biological woman. Your cells in your body carry your DNA which shows your biological sex - which cannot be change. So until be can change our DNA to that of the opposite sex then you cannot transition from a man to a woman.

Why has society made it so ridiculous and why do we believe in fiction rather than facts?

Apparently "Trans Women Are Women" isn't the ideological position of a political movement. Maybe someone should have told Stonewall that years ago, before they adopted it as the slogan that summed up the ideological position for their political campaigning? Full marks for grip on reality there, Jane Fae!

They always avoid hospital wards, prisons and sport and want to talk about toilets - presumably because they think the genital inspection comment's a gotcha?

It's really really not...

Jane Fae is so odd. Campaigning against censorship of extreme pornography on the one hand, but through Trans Media Watch, strangling free speech in mainstream media when it comes to discussing a person’s sex, their multiple identities or the relationship between their fetish life and their offending, on the other.

I'm guessing acknowledging reality is not Jane Fae's strong point.

“Biological sex is a ideological phrase, it’s a dog whistle.”
Hilarious.

“Where on earth is biological sex relevant?”
Dunno, nothing comes to mind.

"There haven’t been problems from trans women using loos.“
Jane has obviously missed the news about Katie Dolatowski and the 10 year old girl.

"If you’ve ever seen a trans woman's vagina…”
Thanks Jane but I think I’ll pass.

"There’s been some horrendous behaviour on both sides."
No there really really hasn't.

JF has been delusional about a person’s ability to perceive sex for a while-

https://theworld.org/stories/2018-09-25/transgender-women-are-women-organizers-say-after-controversy-over-women-only-pond

“Jane Faye (sic) was early in her transition from male to female when she was accosted before entering the women's changing area”

I wonder how they knew Jane? Mmmm 🤔

Was Fae trying to proposition Simon for a drink at the end? Crikey.

And Fae seriously thinks an inverted penis or inserted piece of intestine that is not in the position of a vagina, is not discernible from a natural vagina?

Yeah. There is a word for that but I think I would get deleted.

Oh. well Endless used it so it must be ok to use. It is really delusional to think a male inverted penis is not discernible from a natural vagina.

"If you’ve ever seen a trans woman's vagina…”

Has anyone read the "Vagina Obscura" book? Most of the book shows just how complex and amazing female sexual organs are. But the book tries hard to be trans positive and as a result it is very contradictory about constructed vaginas.

In the chapter on constructed vaginas for transwomen, a surgeon says s/he (don't remember which) keeps discovering how similar male and female genitals really are. The rest of the book contradicts this but the author is uncritical. And apparently a success worth celebrating in transgender surgery is a constructed vagina that doesn't just gape open. So it must be really indistinguishable from a female vagina then

Weirdly, the chapter is called "beauty". Or maybe not so weird after all, because (as a few other thinkers, like Sasha and Stella of the "Gender a Wider Lens" podcasts) have pointed out, much of the emphasis in trans surgery is on appearence and not on function. Not that it's so reliable on aesthetics either, or so I suspect.

The book didn't go into much detail but it does make me wonder if many transwomen are being sold a huge lie.

You can’t see a vagina unless there’s a prolapse or you have a speculum. Do people mean the vulva when they say it looks the same?

Do people mean the vulva when they say it looks the same?

Call me a cynic but I'm coming to the conclusion that the people who say it neither know nor care.

What's brilliant about all this is it's actually being said in public, out loud and on mainstream media.

The term biological sex is a transphobic dog whistle? Hilarious!

And it's going to take about five minutes for interviewers to realise what the counter arguments are.

'Why would women need to police who uses their spaces, when the rule is clear?' will be one of the first.

Let's see these people admit that violating women's boundaries is simply unavoidable.

They also need to wise up that people like Fae talking about the appearance of transwomen's vaginas is meant to shut down the conversation by making the interviewer uncomfortable.

Again, they will need to learn not to be shy. Start talking about how few have one, the ongoing need for dilation, etc. All of it.

Yes. It reminds me of men trying to talk about their cocks - jarringly trying to make you think about/picture it, because you have zero interest in thinking about the fact they have genitals.

I think the ‘gin & tonic’ suggestion have Simon Evans the ick too. It sounded like JF was trying to be seductive. I’m sure SE would have been fine with a suggestion of ‘going for a beer’ - it has connotations of a matey ‘put the world to rights’ chat, but a G&T… I dunno, just sounds….. <<<shudder>>> … wtf is the subtext?

*gave

wow, a radio 4 comedy programme I might actually be able to listen to. the first since the news quiz went completely off the boil

i like simon evans a lot

and i think Jane Fae should be allowed any and all opportunities to explain about how he thinks biological sex is irrelevant in all situations and that anyone looking at him and perceiving a man is transphobic.

Gin & Tonic = ladies drink. Proves Fae’s authenticity.

Sorry to resurrect the thread so late @nauticant - only just listened to your programme.

Did you also hear the item from 10.35? It wasn't just questioning but openly mocking in the use of sound effects/music. Perhaps even more indicative of a fightback than the Jane Fae interview, I thought.