The Witch Trials of JK Rowling

[CrossPurposes]

An in-depth intervietw with JK Rowling by Megan Phelps-Roper coming next week: twitter.com/meganphelps/status/1625465141046247425?s=20

I thought it very good to give Natalie and Noah a platform. I know it's not us going "no debate" but it is a very polarising topic and I don't often hear reasonable points from the other side.
I don't necessarily agree but fair play to them for speaking and fair play to Megan/Jo for allowing them a platform.

I think it was powerful that Meghan choose voices from that side of the debate that were (in their own ways) thoughtful and who could perhaps have partially understood some of JKR's perspective (like being on the recieving end of cancel culture for contrapoint).

I think it's important to find points in common rather than seeing people who disagree simply as "the enemy".

I was impressed by Noah's thoughtfulness on detransistioners and seemed sympathetic to parental concerns about transitioning. I was waiting for the clincher of how Noah knew transistioning was right for Noah and how had taken time coming to that conclusion. But it was all trust in HCPs and Noah was still so young.

What Noah lacked was the perspective older people have, of how older women who have struggled with puberty, same sex attraction, gender stereotypes or sexual harassment and how we got through that discomfort of growing into women, and how it didn't mean that we weren't really women, or couldn't want to have children or breastfeed some day (obvs not all do!) But that outside the pressure cooker of school as a teenager, we could find out tribe of other non conforming women, or our unfeminine career/interests or same sex partner or feminism or all of it.

Instead Noah and parents trusted that HCP knew what was best for Noah. They didn't have the perspective that actually all of this is new, experimental and fundamentally based on an untrue premise - that all people with cross sex identification or even most of them are going to always feel that way and so the "kind" thing to do is to medically alter them to be as close to the opposite sex as possible, as young as possible.

Anyway, I've now listened to the final episode, JKR is so intelligent and measured, and brave. Really important series and Meghan and her unique experience and care really brought a lot to the interviews.

That was an excellent series. It wasn't about a position on trans, or even JKR as a "gender critical" feminist. It was about Meghan, and her concern with how you know you're right. And, most importantly, how you can be sure of your own integrity. I'd like to see it come out as a book.

Agree it was excellent and the final episode especially so. Let's hope it reaches far and wide. I know so many captured by this

I’d buy this as a book too. I could tell by the way JKR didn’t talk in sound bites and left some things a bit unexplained for the newcomer that they were having much longer conversations together. I’d definitely read a book if they put one together with the longer transcripts. They could revisit their discussions in light of Cass being published in future.

It was a very well done podcast and good for opening up discussion
My dd (TWAW) question following some discussion regarding Noah's story was why would any young person subject themselves to such hate and persecution unless they really felt strongly about being in the wrong body?

I think Duvet that they aren't making it up. They do feel strongly. But that doesn't mean that they always will or that the current psychological and medical pathway way of "treating" those feelings is the best approach, especially long term.

They touched upon but didn't explain in depth the research which showed that most children with cross sex identification grow out of it when they go through their biological puberty. Just because some trans adults had those feelings as children does not mean all children with those feelings are trans adults in waiting.

Yes sorry, I didnt mean that they were making it up - I think more that they wanted to escape that body. Yeah good point about the method of treating those feelings.

Escaping your body is a big issue. Heterodorx on Twitter speaks a lot about this. You cannot run away from yourself

Just caught the final episode. An excellent end to the series - JKR explains herself clearly and Megan did her job in challenging her. Whether those who most need to listen do so is doubtful, but hopefully some minds will be changed.

My dd (TWAW) question following some discussion regarding Noah's story was why would any young person subject themselves to such hate and persecution unless they really felt strongly about being in the wrong body
I think there are two interconnected reasons. Firstly, the moment you identify into this, you're joining a group of young people who are fiercely protective of each other, unquestioningly supportive and will target anyone who disagrees with you (as long as you follow the rules). It's you and them against the world, which is a very attractive concept if you're feeling alone and alienated as most teens do. It's unfortunately the same thing that prompts so many young men into joining the alt right.
The second reason is that there's actually very little real danger and persecution. They're 'opting out' of being female and being sexualised from a young age, when there is constant sexual pressure, to saying they don't identify as that any more and the main actual 'threat' they face is from older women and gay people disagreeing with them, mostly online.
There is no equivalent of the scenes we saw last weekend. There's no trans meetings where women turn up screaming, punching and kettling them. Instead, it's a very adolescent thing: fighting back against an older generation while finding what they see as their place in the world.

I felt sorry for Noah. To be so at odds with your physical appearance during those young teenage years is horrible and to have a mastectomy at 16 is a lot to deal with.
I’m sorry to say that I just felt that I was listening to a child. When Noah brought along their HP merch to show Megan I just felt that it could be any child talking like this who has been sucked into an online / secondary school confusion with pretty flags and YouTube influencers.

I haven't rtft as I haven't had a chance to listen to episode 7 and don't want "spoilers".

I was struck in episode 6 when contrapoints is talking about how trans people will gain acceptance over the next 20 years as it slowly becomes apparent that the "legitimate fears" women hold are not legitimate at all. At first I thought this must be an extract from an old contrapoints video but it's not. It just baffles me that contrapoints could believe this is the way things will ultimately pan out whereas from my point of view there are more and more incidents showing that women's fears are totally valid.

It just baffles me that contrapoints could believe this is the way things will ultimately pan out whereas from my point of view there are more and more incidents showing that women's fears are totally valid.

In contrapoints worldview none of those incidents are important. They only have significance in the minds of transphobes. So as transgender becomes better understood and there are fewer transphobes, more and more people will decide these fears are not legitimate. And these incidents will not mean what a cold-eyed factual analysis would suggest they mean.

I guess that in contrapoints' world view it is only transphobia that makes women want a women-only rape crisis group, because otherwise why would we not feel as willing and empowered sharing our stories with transwomen as we do with women? There is no explanation in that worldview except transphobia. It's is not legitimate to associate transwomen with bad things that men (more often) do and women do not, or with things that men (and transwomen) have the power and inclination to do and women do not.

And in truth this de-legitimisation has panned out in the past, just as contrapoints says it will in future. It worked for years for Sussex Rape Survivors though the law may yet disagree. It didn't pan out for Nicola Sturgeon but she had very unlucky timing - a very obvious example turned up at a critical time that couldn't be explained away and was too juicy a controversy for the press and her political enemies to miss. I don't know if it will pan out the way contrapoints expects. Probably it will in some places, the same way we have fundamentalist states.

Plus contrapoints is not in the UK. The UK is notable for things not working out the way contrapoints expects.

I think this podcast is so valuable.

I'm in Australia. I listen to a podcast by two intelligent funny female journalists called Chat10Looks3: Annabel Crabb and Leigh Sales. Previously both have been very TWAW much to my disappointment. I think they have been caught up in the whole 'be kind' movement having teenage kids.

On the latest episode Leigh is listening to this podcast. She is (notably to my ears) careful in her discussion of it, praising the cultural history aspect and saying there's been a lot of JK Rowling focus and she wants to hear the trans voices too (wait till she gets to Natalie and Noah).

But - BUT it is being discussed, and not immediately written off as transphobia with all the usual secondary outrage. That is so important and I'm so relieved that this issue is getting airtime via the podcast.

I think MPR was the ideal person to bring this to light. You cannot argue that no debate is a good way to deal with an issue given her specific background. And despite the outrage of the TRAs about the podcast, she does generally do a good job of finding a balanced approach so that regular 'be kind' people aren't immediately turned off.

I loved the final episode too. Agreed that this was a fantastic series not on any of the discussed issues - but really on how do you know that you are right?

This is why I find Contrapoints especially annoying, that people seem to regard CP as some sort of wise sage, when I see CP as an irritating attention seeker with a dressing up box.

VERY apt description!

I loved the last episode!

Has anyone read any good reviews? All the ones I've seen aren't that great - and I really hope that people will have listened through to the end of the series; as most of the review seem to have been written mid way through and it's the last episode that brings it all together I think.

I thought it was excellent - the final episode had JKR address some very important stuff, and she had all
the receipts for her figures.

I appreciated MPR’s questions to check whether you’re enjoying yourself as part of a righteous mob or standing up for what’s right. And I think Jo answered that with clarity and self-reflection.

I know sometimes on here I can get a kick of “we’re right, we’re fighting the righteous war,” and it’s right that we stop and check ourselves on that. I feel passionate about this because of the harm I see it doing vulnerable young women, the loss of safety and dignity for women and children, and the transing of young people who could have grown up to be happy and secure gays and lesbians. That doesn’t mean I get to mock the appearance of transwomen or be cruel about them, which can happen when we get a bit caught up in Us vs Them arguments.

A thoughtful end to an excellent series.

Agree. It was Megan's podcast and it was highly relevant that it was. I saw someone on Twitter chiding JKR recently for claiming to be the victim of a witch hunt, which she has never said, and pointing to the title of this podcast as evidence?! Like JKR chose the title or the structure or the approach or anything? She was just interviewed.

Obviously the person hadn't listened to any of the podcast but hey, why let that stop you from making knee-jerk judgements based on a title and your own prejudices.

I agree that it's helpful to catch yourself feeling that self-righteous buzz. Obviously everyone on all angles of the insanity gets hooked by that feeling. Its also like walking a tightrope, because being internally congruent to your own feelings is fundamental to mental health.

The Cambridge Analytica whistleblower Chris Wylie talks in his book about intensive research being done into how to trigger maximal reactions in audiences by artificially making them feel under threat. The brain's powerful survival mechanism is tripped and you have that explosive reaction that lots of people are probably familiar with to the point of boredom around issues like transgenderism.

That was in 2013/14. The people who manipulate social media in this way have had lots of practise since then. If enough people act out of rage then it looks like something awful is really happening. And the concerted effort being made to weaponise people's emotions against them, like Orwell's 2 Minutes Hate, is concealed.

It's not easy to be true to your own emotional life and those explosions, yet also to gently let it defuse for your own sake when you're ready to. But I do think that if enough people did this then we could get to a point like at the end of The Wizard of Oz, when Oz's disguise has been stripped. But none of that's to say people shouldn't respond and take action, or have feelings.

This is what I took massively from the podcast too. The absence of any possibility for debate, especially post lockdown, is indeed a danger zone

Really excellent and very thoughtful series. Enjoyed it immensely.

I must say I don't get any joy or self righteous buzz about what's going on. I find it all deeply depressing, scary and annoying in equal measures.

There's a lot of information in all the episodes, and it's very well rounded. But I'm still struck by one of the things said in the first episode, where her books were banned across America, because of various religious groups' fear over witchcraft and wizardry.

I can't remember her exact words, but there was something of the incredulous about it, because it's a fantasy, there's no such thing.

And yes it's not lost on me that those who believe in God, might be more likely to believe in witchcraft. But nonetheless, Witchcraft!