help needed for youth club input

[rhywlodes]

I'm on the committee of a youth club and we don't have enough men on the volunteer rota. We're drafting an ad to recruit more men and the colleague I'm working with has used 'identify as female/male'.

I bit the bullet and explained as neutrally as possible why I think this language isn't clear enough. She doesn't agree with me AT ALL. We've said we'll ask the wider group what they think.

I've told her quite clearly (and hopefully diplomatically) what I think and she's accepted that, although she doesn't agree, so that's not what I need help with.

What I need help with is examples of language in this kind of context - quote from the Eq act? policy from Scouts or other youth group? so that we are copying existing language rather than using ideological language.

I'd like to say something like "why don't we base our language on ...?" to the wider group and find an example that people can't really argue with.

I'd be really grateful for any suggestions.

(I've name-changed for this but still feeling nervous about posting as the situation is completely recognisable to anyone who knows!)

Hm. I'd take a step back and define why you need more men.

Eg you have boys who need help toileting and they/their parents have requested same sex help?

Or you want more male role models? Why? What do you think will change with more men?

Do you want more people who can lead on 'masculine' coded activities like fire building, knife work, survival? In which case it would surely be better to be specific about the skills and activities you are looking for help with? Why would it matter if a transman or another woman with those skills joined?

Or do you want people who can relate to the life experience of adolescent boys? Again why not just ask for that?

A very limited understanding in this area I'm afraid so id ask for advice from your head office - I'm not sure whether discrimination law is the same for volunteers as for employees, and how you define who is a volunteer.

Thank you.
Yes, discrimmination law had occurred to me too.
Good points, perhaps avoiding the 'gendered' language and specifying the skills we need is the way forward. Like people who can relate to the life experience of adolescent boys

Part of me wants the rest of the team to realise that this language is important though!

I don't think there's any legislation that uses terminology about "identifying as" ie not being.

Stick with the letter of the law - the EA 2010, as flawed as it is, does talk about sex and that is "a male or female of any age". If you ask for "identifies as male" I think you are on potentially shaky ground in terms of discrimination becauseuou could be said to be discriminating against males who don't "identify as" but simply are.

people who can relate to the life experience of adolescent boys

I think that's really key. This is not an exercise to validate a female who identifies as a male. This is about supporting boys/young men.

Also, if you're going to restrict a job by sex then you need to follow the Eq Act wording, I would imagine, as Jacqueline notes above.

But I'm not sure that the legal picture for voluntary roles is the same as for employees. I think you need advice on that.

I don't like sloppy language in job ads/descriptions either. My pet hate was always requiring a degree (unspecified) for a job, as to me this is direct age discrimination (particularly 20 years ago whrn I worked in an HR job). The thing is that your roles might be fine for someone who would describe themselves as 'identifying as a man' because the fact that you 'identify as a man' tells me absolutely nothing useful about you. It's completely irrelevant to any job. Ficus on what actually matters. The quicker we get to a place in society where someone's 'identity' is like their preferred restaurant - ie something of only passing interest - the better.

Don't Councils and the like regularly use a form of words along the lines of 'we want to have a good diversity mix, so <under-represented demographic> candidates will be guaranteed an interview'.
The under-represented demographic will be in line with Equality Act protected characteristics.

Thanks, this has given me really good stuff to think about. I'm going to keep thinking and reading, sleep on it and decide what to say to 'the group' in the morning.

I've messaged the group. My colleague had suggested we vote on it, so that's how I've worded it. It does have the merit of being a clear and democratic way of making a decison, but I have no idea how captured the others are!! We'll see...
I did add a sentence saying that the wording I prefer is closest to the law etc.

Things like this just make me want to leave the committee and leave them to it, but on the other hand I probably need to be there waving the equality act at them!

It also made me realise how captured some people are - she would not give any ground on her opinion, even though I gave a couple of examples taken from 1st hand experience about the difficulties disabled women and women who don't have English as a first language might have. She will go to her grave with the firm belief that the only thing that matters is that gender is a spectrum...

And following on from that, how captured groups and institutions are, and how easily everyone else goes along with this!

And I know people on here often say that 'most people agree with us' when you get talking to them, and I know that must be logically true, but I've had this experience a couple of times now, and it's made me feel extremely vulnerable every time. It makes me question myself, and why I would put myself 'in danger', as it were. I could just leave the committee and leave them to it (probably shaking their heads in disbelief about what a bigot I turned out to be...)

I have no idea how captured the others are!! We'll see...
Get canvassing, rally support. They may not realise the significance of the words. I would have thought, after Sturgeon and the Isla Bryson case, you would be shooting into an open goal.
Remember if you allow 'people who identify as a man' then you also have to allow 'people who identify as a woman' and all that that entails. Is it a mixed-sex youth group? Have you thought about the safeguarding side of things?

Look again at the first response to your OP. Ask your fellow volunteers: what is more important, the needs of the young attendees or the gender-feelings of the adult volunteers?

Well, it was an action point after a meeting so it the document was written quickly then proofread by me before being circulated on social media/local advertising and so on. The language points/difference between sex and gender haven't been discussed properly and the whatsapp group isn't the best place to do so, I don't think.

I'd be happy to explain my reasoning in a future face to face meeting, as I think you're right that some people haven't understood the implications.

I've gone with the consensus by the way, which was to use 'inclusive language'. I think I need to pick battles and this wasn't one of them.
Shame that by choosing this language they've excluded me, my sister, and probably more than half of the population of this working class town...

Ask your fellow volunteers: what is more important, the needs of the young attendees or the gender-feelings of the adult volunteers?

You're quite right Senua.

Shame that by choosing this language they've excluded me, my sister, and probably more than half of the population of this working class town...
I was going to mention that point, too. No way would I volunteer at a place that was so actively (unnecessarily so) pro-trans. You can tell them that from me!
For every one that you attract, you would probably put off another ten.

Get canvassing, rally support

I will talk to a couple of people who I know a bit better and who I can 'risk' saying what I think a bit more honestly with, in anticipation of this coming up at a future meeting.

I'm on a roll now (a bit late, sorry).
There are two trains of thought: pro-gender-ID and those who believe in the immutability of sex. Both are permissible but organisation should tread a careful line not to favour one over the other. By including 'identify as' in the advertisement, the Youth Group are effectively saying that they believe in gender-ID. As a member of the other camp, I would be put off applying.
It's not that I would be put off because I am anti-trans; it would be because I wouldn't trust the Group, should any conflict arise, to treat the situation impartially.

No, don't worry, the initial thing is done and now I need to think about the next step.
What you've just said Senua is exactly how I see it. Exactly.

The woman I was working with yesterday doesn't see it at all like that though! She thinks the pro-gender ID way is the 'right' way, the 'modern' way. She thinks she is being impartial.

I tried to say that I was reading it through the eyes of the working class men that we are hoping to recruit (I can dream!). They will read this and roll their eyes and feel it's not for them. We have lost them as potential recruits before we've even started.

She presumably thinks they (and me!) need educating!

I think I missed this bit the other day
No way would I volunteer at a place that was so actively (unnecessarily so) pro-trans. You can tell them that from me!
For every one that you attract, you would probably put off another ten.

I've tried to tell them that! The woman I was working with over the weekend and the youth leader (the only one of us who is paid) who I'm talking to over whatsapp. They don't seem to get it though.
Everybody else I've asked outside this small group has said the same, that this language would put them off.

There's an update! The announcement went up on different social media on Sunday, and we've had complaints!! Despite our best efforts we still haven't capitulated enough to the gender machine. We've been asked to apologise and allsorts. You honestly couldn't make a more ridiculous scenario if you were trying to write a sketch exposing the hilariousness of it all.

I could write more but I'm really aware that we are being 'watched'. Like the monitors who watch us on here, it's become apparent that there are people in our community keeping an eagle eye on this stuff and not letting anyone step out of line. I might get this thread deleted...

But in the meantime, I took the advice to canvass - I haven't had time to physically go and see anyone but did text one other woman on the committee - and she agrees with me!!

The announcement went up on different social media on Sunday, and we've had complaints!! Despite our best efforts we still haven't capitulated enough to the gender machine.

What else did the complainers want you to do?

Despite our best efforts we still haven't capitulated enough to the gender machine. We've been asked to apologise and allsorts.
Keep out of it. Let Ms #BeKind take the flak.

Omg this is giving me like weird stressy feelings like - are they watching me??
But here goes with some quotes...
Remember we compromised (against my personal feeling) and went with gender neutral language that we hoped would suit everyone...

bits from the complaint:
"there are a few tricky things with the language used"
"I can see that there's been efforts to use inclusive language but it's not quite on the mark IMO"
"I'm not sure if you have transwomen volunteering or what this part means really but trans women are women"
"you have at least 2 non-binary volunteers" (really? no-one asked me?) (how do they know?)
"Obviously cis men and trans men both identify as men"
"I'm also really happy to have stuff like this run past in in future, I would really hate for the few trans volunteers to have to do all the work and educating on this stuff"
There's more but I really need to go to bed!

This is all verbatim. So verbatim that I (almost) feel guilty for quoting it. I mean you see what I mean when I said it was ridiculous.
Do you think they too have a bingo card?

What my 'be kind' colleagues reply is almost worse, honestly you couldn't make it up.
Will post the be kind stuff tomorrow if you're interested. But don't worry, I'm keeping a note of all this to write an award-winning play! 😀

Keep out of it. Let Ms #BeKind take the flak

yes, this is good advice too.

I will have to do this at some point and the poor youth leader's head will explode.

Will post the be kind stuff tomorrow if you're interested. But don't worry, I'm keeping a note of all this to write an award-winning play! 😀

I think we are all interested. Right now I'm listening to NicolaSturgeon resign, and feeling a little hopeful. That play might be on stage sooner than you think.