Detransitioner and mother interviewed by Evan Davis on Radio 4 pm

[IwantToRetire]

Who would have thought it? Listen and see what you think. Starts about 45 minutes in

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001hwzz

The interviewer injected a lot of himself into this segment, frequently emphasising the existence of trans people (not the subject of the interview), the persistence of their identity beyond puberty. He was openly doubtful of the parents' motives and not curious at all about what the mother said about GIDs care. He did that interview through gritted teeth.

Penance for outlandish bias in his other recent interviews on this topic?

Compared to other interviews it wasn’t too bad. Bravo to the Mum and Ruby for the courage of speaking like this.
Ruby if you read this I wish you a long, Happy life. As a Mum myself it made me very emotional to hear the deep love your parents have for you.

I did wonder if he had been put on the naughty step and this was a condition of showing he was really sorry. ie sorry not sorry

I think he has be more careful in treading the line between what he really thinks and how public opinion may be changing. So theoretically supportive of underage trans identified child being cautious, but then he went on and on at the mother about she would of course had supported her daughter if she had continued in her trans identity as an adult.

Not quite the same but when interviewing Shone Robison after the voted on Scottish GRR, he asked twice whether single sex exemptions would still apply. This is very much the line of the SNP, what is the fuss about as the SSE will still apply, thus glossing over the other parts of the Bill. Self identity and under age children being able to get a certificate.

But I do hope that the segment being on pm might make a few people stop and think.

Oh yes, and thought the mother was brilliant. Began to wonder if she was on FWR!

I agree with mirax's gritted teeth comment, but I actually think it was a reasonably fair interview, given that he has made his position on the ideology clear.

I thought Kath made a really good point - that pronouns and name changes and immediate affirmation cause an INCREASE in the unhappiness these teenagers feel about their developing bodies. No wonder they start to seek to change it through medical means. But also later, when she said about not knowing who will happily persist and who will regret any changes, hence the importance of watchful waiting.

I need to listen again, but I think ED also said that the Trans side don't like hearing about detransitioners like Ruby, which was quite a big thing, I think.

I listened to the interview after someone had posted the link in a group I'm in.

Considering it was Evan Davis conducting the interview, I thought it was reasonably fair. He just couldn't help himself and did keep pushing the trutrans line but he also gave Ruby and her Mum plenty of time to talk. The Mum was brilliant. I'm sure she'll have got a lot of listeners thinking.

And yes, at the end, he did say that TRAs (not his words) don't like to hear from detransitioners.

Great to hear this on the radio, and I think the mum's calm, measured responses will give some pause for thought.

Wow. I never thought I’d hear that on Radio 4. That’s a genuine shift, IMO, airing those voices on that platform.

Yes, Evan Davis was desperate to push the “but trans still is a real thing” line, but at least he let them speak.

I think this is significant.

Thanks for posting, IwantToRetire.

For anyone who did not listen, you should try as this was really very, good. This was because of the extraordinary mother and daughter whom Evan spoke to. They couldn’t have been more sensitive, or lucid.

They were also sensitive to trans people who, unlike the girl here, did finally feel being trans was right for them.

It is very good the BBC this on, and the mother and daughter were exceptionally good at explaining and describing their experience.

This was really a case more of desistance than detransitioning, thanks to Ruby’s family in not affirming her even though at school her friends used her chosen pronouns and name.

Very remarkably, Ruby’s mother also had a strong sense not to let her be seen by the Tavistock even though she gir mot a place to be seen there very quickly. When she had spoken to them initially, she noticed they would only talk about ‘gender’, nothing else that might have been behind Ruby’s feelings. They also said they just listened to the child, which the mother knew would be wrong in this case.

As it happened, Ruby had been diagnosed with autism, and her mother thought there were reasons why Ruby might have been finding it difficult to fit in her life.

Evan brought up the ‘torture’ of Conversion Therapy. The mother said that it was very worrying g to think that their refusal not to affirm her, their asking her to question why she felt the way she did, could under certain definitions be construed as ‘conversion therapy’. She was clear that though some people might decide they were trans when they are older, they were dealing with a child.

Evan did mention that some people were ‘just trans’.

Evan never mentioned the Cass report, why the Tavistock was closed, or the Cass finding that affirmation is not neutral.

He did not touch on the other factors that can go with gender dysphoria like autism, past trauma, being in care, possibly being gay, peer pressure seeing the 4000% increase in feeling they are trans in girls like Ruby.

Or the very important point that something like 90% of gender dysphoric children desist by the time they are 18 or 19 if they have not gone down the route of affirmation.

These things could have been touched on by Evan as relevant facts.

I do hope some families facing this as an issue with a child get some comfort from listening to it.

If the BBC / ED are genuine then they should follow up, eg the number of girls diagnosed as being autistic getting caught up in trans ideology.

But suspect the next interview will be with someone who transitioned and is happy and the BBC will claim balance. Which might be true in this week, but doesn't go any where near enough compensating for all the occasions of biased reporting and not just by PM / ED.

Not reporting on published facts where relevant is a form of bias.

Evan could have mentioned those about the all factors which may be affecting children who say they are trans, the Cass report about affirmation, the recent rapid onset of trans identities.

I think part of the tactic that E / PM use is to go for the personal stories.

In the past he has filled PM with personal testomonies from both trans and trans allies.

I dont think he has ever given a spot to a woman to talk about loosing her rights, so allowing a detransitioner to speak was a breakthrough.

But yes, not dealing with facts makes it much easier to sway the story.

Even just on simple numbers eg how come over 50% of the population is having to give up their rights for less than 1% of the population.

If I remember rightly it was only newsnight on the BBC that even began to investigate. Otherwise all trans stories where either happy clappy rainbows or sad tales of being disrespected.

So I suspect for as long as pm is led by ed there will be no facts.

Thanks for sharing. Definitely worth a listen, particularly for the calm strong mother.

Hi. Did anyone archive this (if that's even possible) by any chance, please?

It’s available here https://www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/mother-and-daughter-evan-davis-radio4/

Thank you so, so much @Leafstamp !

I needed this to send to someone- but it's actually very pertinent to listen to again re conversion therapy discussion.
I do hope personal stories like this have been fully listened to by those planning legislation.

(I love the 'Ask and you shall recieve' nature of this board)

@mirax Evan Davis has always been awful on gender issues, and in fact isn’t very good on women’s issues generally. So disappointing, but also infuriating, given his extremely influential position as BBCR4 PM lead. However many people he interviews, he just doesn’t seem to get it.

R4’s AntiSocial and Newscast presenter Adam Fleming is the same. Whenever the subject comes up, he puts on his hard voice.

@IwantToRetire but didn’t Hannah Barnes have to leave Newsnight because she couldn’t get a proper hearing for the gender debate?

It was interesting that Evan Davis made a thing about having segments about "gender" on the PM programme and these appeared regularly for some time and then just stopped. I don't think the subject has been mentioned on the programme since.

Ah, I’ve just seen it’s not the entire interview? But hopefully the clip is still useful

Sorry have no idea! As far as I know there was always this sort of split presentation on newsnight when usually Deborah Cohen would do a fact based report, and then the next day if not the same day, there would be some TWAW guests with Victoria Derbyshire gushing all over them.

And the documentary style reporting continued and it was newsnight that really got the public attention re Tavistock.

Its a shame that in revamping newsnight they are going to focus on guests "discussing", so susect very few facts will be available via newsnight.

As it is at the moment Victoria Derbyshire seems to be going over the top to audition to be the most in your face interviewer in the most absurd way.

But here is an old article you might find interesting https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/tavistock-clinic-gender-identity-development-service-children-truth-hannah-barnes-b1111551.html