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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Why don't we introduce legal gender?

92 replies

PronounsBaby · 03/02/2023 07:14

Been thinking about this a little while... And just thinking out loud really....

I feel like some of the confusion around gender/sex could be solved by introducing the concept of legal gender.

GRC = an appendix on your birth cert with states you have changed you gender. Your birth cert stays the same (as it has happened, it's in the past. You were born your bio sex and that's important to have recorded and never going to change)
Then on passports etc you have your bio sex and a little gender box too.

Same on your medical records. Then you still get your automatic smear test letters and breast screening apts (if appropriate). Your blood / urine tests are tested using the correct parameters. But you have a little box which alerts medical professionals that you want to be referred to as a man/women. Your letters will be addressed this way but medical info will be taylored for your correct sex.

Holistically your gender can be man/women whatever you want but legally and medically you're still your bio sex.

Obvs won't help the cult like spread of the ideology, misinformation & rush to medicialise children but wouldn't it help iron out some if the confusion? Help to separate sex and gender.

Same sex attracted - stays the same.
Sex based rights - stays the same.

No such thing as 'legal sex' to confused idiots people.

People could even choose not to have gender, just use their sex for things.....

What do you think?

OP posts:
PortiasBiscuit · 03/02/2023 07:17

Quite happy with being female thanks. It’s not law, it’s biology !

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 03/02/2023 07:22

I get where you're coming from and I see your logic, even though I still don't really understand the concept of gender or what it actually is, other than a collection of stereotypes. I guess I would fall into the category of choosing not to have one.

I could certainly live with your solution, but I don't think the TWAW lobby could. I don't think they will ever be happy until the concept of gender - whatever that actually is - completely replaces and erases the fact of biological sex.

hryllilegur · 03/02/2023 07:26

Why would your gender need to be in your passport? Sex serves some basic identification purpose, I guess. It doesn’t change either.

But gender would be as pointless on a passport as your marital status, your job, or your favourite food.

BoredOfThisMansWorld · 03/02/2023 07:26

The TWAW lobby would not like it. But in a way that would be beneficial to the wider public because your suggestion seems logical and accomodating. When hardline TWAW believers had to explain why they didn't like it, people would learn what their actual intentions were.

MagpiePi · 03/02/2023 07:29

i also get where you’re coming from but….
If gender is a real thing, how can parents know what gender a baby is?

Also, why should we change things to appease a very small minority of the population?

Rightsraptor · 03/02/2023 07:29

Firstly, gender would have to be defined in law which it hasn't been so far. It's such a nebulous concept I think it would be hard to define, but I'm sure better brains than mine could give it a go

But you say "no such thing as 'legal sex' to confuse people", @PronounsBaby. Do you mean get rid of the concept of legal sex?

pieceofpasta · 03/02/2023 07:29

I think it's a really good idea and I've been thinking the same. It would signal that sex and gender are different. Many of us would choose to leave it blank. It might be fine for some of the activists but many wouldn't like it as their goal is to remove sex based rights.

Sweetmotherofallthatisholyabov · 03/02/2023 07:33

You would have to be able to define gender. What is the female gender?

MiaMoor · 03/02/2023 07:34

It would be a pointless addition though, because gender doesn’t mean anything or inform anyone.
Sex should remain on birth certificates, passports, medical records etc as sex isn’t changeable, saying otherwise is a lie and causes confusion all round.
Trans activists would reject it because anything that suggests TW aren’t women is an abomination of bigotry.

Lockedinforwinter · 03/02/2023 07:35

Sounds like sensible middle ground to me.

Helleofabore · 03/02/2023 07:37

But what happens if you decide that you are no longer Neptune gender but cat gender? Do you have to replace all your documents?

The number of genders is growing exponentially, it cannot be fully captured in a list. It will then need to be a free text field or hand written field on paper.

What happens if a typo is made?

NotBadConsidering · 03/02/2023 07:38

Sweetmotherofallthatisholyabov · 03/02/2023 07:33

You would have to be able to define gender. What is the female gender?

Came here to say the same.

Define gender.

If it’s inner feelings, why can’t other inner feelings be enshrined in law?

hryllilegur · 03/02/2023 07:38

Imagine the debate to agree an actual definition of gender that isn’t ‘a bunch of crap stereotypes some people seem
hugely attached to building their sense of self around’.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 03/02/2023 07:39

To be honest, I would really welcome a legal definition of gender. I genuinely can't grasp what it's supposed to be at the moment, beyond some sort of "feeling" that often seems to be associated with some fairly simplistic and outdated stereotypes about men and women.

I think it would be great to try to pin it down so that we know what it actually is.

jellyfrizz · 03/02/2023 07:42

As long as they make it clear that sex and gender identity are absolutely and totally not the same thing in law or otherwise they could have print off and colour in your own gender identity certificates.

Saisong · 03/02/2023 07:44

Apparently the NHS computer system was designed like this with two fields. Then they blew it by allowing the recording of gender in the sex box, making a mockery of the whole thing.

Helleofabore · 03/02/2023 07:46

Be whatever gender you wish to be. change it as often as you feel the need to.

Why does it need to be notified to anyone at all really? It is such individualised thinking with no thought beyond that one person’s needs.

How does it help the world to have documented genders?

This is like saying that hair colour should be adjusted officially everytime it changes. Instead of noting the colour as produced by the coding in your genes.

HipTightOnions · 03/02/2023 07:46

I quite like this idea.

I would rather like to force a serious attempt to define "gender".

Then, if that were successful, we could move on to discussing which things should be separated by sex, and which, if any, by gender.

Beamur · 03/02/2023 07:51

What would be the point?
It's meaningless. All it achieves is perhaps explaining how you want to be addressed, but you could do that by simply asking 'how do you want to be addressed?'
No one needs 'know' how I feel about myself and I am not really that interested in this in other people. You do you as people say.

FKATondelayo · 03/02/2023 07:53

TRAs won't like it because the whole point of transition is to break boundaries.

My objection is state (and corporate) over-reach into our private lives. Your gender, your personality, your star sign, your opinions, your sexuality (as opposed to sexual orientation which his rightly protected in the EA) - these are personal matters.

We are in a cost of living crisis and enough taxpayer money has been wasted on gender dancing already. At some point the government need to step up and say 'identify how you want, nothing to do with us.' Government documents are for verifiable, objective and relevant data.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 03/02/2023 07:55

Nice idea by why? Like hryllilegur said it serves no more purpose than your favourite food. ID documents are for legally recorded facts not some people's personality preferences. If more information was to be on them things like blood group would be rather more useful and important.

ChaToilLeam · 03/02/2023 07:55

I think the best thing to do would be to accept that there is biological sex and that is that. There is no such thing as gender identity, it’s a meaningless indulgence.

By all means dress how you wish (as long as you remain decent), grow or cut your hair, wear cat ears and meow, but human beings can’t change sex so let’s cease this pretence. People with dysphoria of any kind deserve sympathy and help but we can’t turn the world on its head to magic those feelings away.

MichelleScarn · 03/02/2023 07:56

Can I change mine to then say I wasn't born in Auchtermuchty to a lawyer and a nurse but I feel it was on Cyrillion-7 to Lord Apexoon and the High Priestess Zeela?

Riverlee · 03/02/2023 07:56

i get where you’re coming from as well, and it may help to define what the modern meaning of gender is. It would be especially useful in a healthcare setting.

However, how do you define gender? In its simplistic forms, girls like pink and plays with dolls and boys wear blue and plays with trains.

But the modern meaning is that you ‘feel like a woman’, whatever that may mean. I don’t feel like a woman, I am a woman despite not having a womb (thus making me exempt from certain vibrators…!)(hysterectomy due to womb cancer risk - a risk a male would never have!) but I wear trouser and likes maths.

So although I don’t disagree with you, op, in principle, defining gender could be difficult.

NancyDrawed · 03/02/2023 07:57

Funnily enough I was thinking about this yesterday.

I have always thought that falsifying birth certificates was a terrible idea and should never have been done.

Lack of visible sex marker on documents with a photo like passports wouldn't matter to me in the slightest.

But then how would people like IW prove that IW IS A REAL WOMAN LET THAT PENETRATE without having IW's passport as proof?

(I don't care, btw, but I do wonder whether half of the 'gender trumps all' people would be up in arms if there was no way to prove their false identity)