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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Extremely useful women's toilets decision just released by the EAT

50 replies

User76765 · 02/02/2023 11:21

"Direct Sex Discrimination

Was the Respondent's provision of inadequate toilet facilities for women inherently less favourable treatment that therefore subjected the Claimant to direct sex discrimination?

Yes, held the EAT in Earl Shilton Town Council v Miller.

The Respondent operated from a church building that also hosted a play group. The women’s toilets were in part of the building used by the playgroup and were used by those attending the group. Female employees had to attract the attention of playgroup staff to ensure the toilets were not occupied by children. This arrangement made them unsuitable for urgent use. Female employees were offered the use of a toilet cubicle in the male toilets but access required passing the urinals. There was also the risk of men entering the toilet and no sanitary bins.

The Respondent argued:

  1. that the less favourable treatment could not be because of sex where the toilet arrangements resulted from safeguarding requirements and;
  2. that there was no less favourable treatment given the risk a man faced of being observed when using the urinal was equivalent to that of a woman seeing the man use the urinal.

The EAT dismissed the appeal finding that a women being at risk of seeing a man using the urinal is not the same as the risk of a man seeing another man using the urinal. Applying ‘robust common sense’ if one starts by considering the nature of the treatment, the Claimant was not provided with toilet facilities that were adequate to her needs, because of the risk of coming across a man using the urinal and the lack of a sanitary provisions. That treatment was less favourable than that accorded to men.

The Respondent did not argue the second limb of the appeal in the tribunal. However, it was observed that the fact that a man might also be able to assert direct sex discrimination would not be fatal to the Claimant’s claim – just as it may not be fatal if another woman did not object to the arrangements."

OP posts:
User76765 · 02/02/2023 11:22

EAT level so it's binding

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User76765 · 02/02/2023 11:23

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63d8076fd3bf7f252a730a11/Earl_Shilton_Town_Council_-v-_Ms_K_Miller__2023__EAT_5.pdf

Link to the judgment if anyone wants it

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Datun · 02/02/2023 11:57

Applying ‘robust common sense’ if one starts by considering the nature of the treatment, the Claimant was not provided with toilet facilities that were adequate to her needs, because of the risk of coming across a man using the urinal and the lack of a sanitary provisions.

Does that mean that any woman forced into the position of using a facility where men could be using urinals is now sex discrimination?

User76765 · 02/02/2023 11:58

Yes potentially.

It is also hard to see how unless its actually the act of urinating that is problematic, the case isn't of general applicability to visible penises in changing rooms..

OP posts:
User76765 · 02/02/2023 11:59

women's changing rooms

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User76765 · 02/02/2023 12:01

There was also the risk of men entering the toilet

And males being in womens toilets in general

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Circumferences · 02/02/2023 12:06

The EAT dismissed the appeal finding that a women being at risk of seeing a man using the urinal is not the same as the risk of a man seeing another man using the urinal

Wow I read this and the only contribution I can muster is "well.... Duuh".

Circumferences · 02/02/2023 12:09

I don't think employment tribunals contribute to legal precedents, but it's still great to hear common sense applied in certain cases after being fatigued for so long over so many ridiculous judgements made by supposedly intelligent people.

Shelefttheweb · 02/02/2023 12:13

Circumferences · 02/02/2023 12:09

I don't think employment tribunals contribute to legal precedents, but it's still great to hear common sense applied in certain cases after being fatigued for so long over so many ridiculous judgements made by supposedly intelligent people.

Employment tribunals don’t but this was an Employment Appeals Tribunal and they do set precedents and are binding on employment tribunals

Shelefttheweb · 02/02/2023 12:16

If the respondent thought urinals were not an issue, why were the playgroup not using the men’s toilet?

User76765 · 02/02/2023 12:20

Shelefttheweb · 02/02/2023 12:13

Employment tribunals don’t but this was an Employment Appeals Tribunal and they do set precedents and are binding on employment tribunals

Correct. This is binding

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SpideyCraw · 02/02/2023 12:23

The judge, James Tayler, is the same judge who decided Fostater at first instance and determined that gender critical beliefs are not worthy of respect in a democratic society.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 02/02/2023 12:24

🎉🥳🥂

Ms K Miller, in taking this all the way to the EAT you have not only gotten resolution for the discrimination you faced, but also made it easier for other women to push back on similar situations

Thank you!

💐

Datun · 02/02/2023 12:24

Shelefttheweb · 02/02/2023 12:16

If the respondent thought urinals were not an issue, why were the playgroup not using the men’s toilet?

Ahh. And this is why Mumsnetters should rule the world.

BellaAmorosa · 02/02/2023 12:26

Shelefttheweb · 02/02/2023 12:16

If the respondent thought urinals were not an issue, why were the playgroup not using the men’s toilet?

Well, quite!

BellaAmorosa · 02/02/2023 12:29

@User76765
This is absolutely brilliant. Sex Matters should be adding this to their guidance.

Boiledbeetle · 02/02/2023 12:36

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 02/02/2023 12:24

🎉🥳🥂

Ms K Miller, in taking this all the way to the EAT you have not only gotten resolution for the discrimination you faced, but also made it easier for other women to push back on similar situations

Thank you!

💐

Stronger together. All these little wins. Little push backs. Eventually become so great it's causes the pendulum to swing the other way.

The Millers of this world are definitely doing their bit for women!

BellaAmorosa · 02/02/2023 12:38

This reminds me of the discrimination case which a top female jockey won, about having to go through the men's changing area to get to the weighing room, or something. Same principle, it was discrimination because she had to pass by naked men (some of whom were quite aggressive). Probably discrimination against the men, too, just like in this instance (although no complaint was made by the men).

Boiledbeetle · 02/02/2023 12:38

SpideyCraw · 02/02/2023 12:23

The judge, James Tayler, is the same judge who decided Fostater at first instance and determined that gender critical beliefs are not worthy of respect in a democratic society.

I've always wondered if the original decision was to force it to the next tier to get it into law. Because it made no sense as a judgement.

MoltenLasagne · 02/02/2023 12:42

Boiledbeetle · 02/02/2023 12:38

I've always wondered if the original decision was to force it to the next tier to get it into law. Because it made no sense as a judgement.

That makes so much sense. I do love it when MNers point out things that have been puzzling me and its suddenly a "tada!" moment.

Rainbowshit · 02/02/2023 12:44

Do employment appeal tribunals decisions set a legal precedent in areas other than employment?

Boiledbeetle · 02/02/2023 12:45

@MoltenLasagne I could be completely wrong mind.😁

User76765 · 02/02/2023 12:46

Boiledbeetle · 02/02/2023 12:38

I've always wondered if the original decision was to force it to the next tier to get it into law. Because it made no sense as a judgement.

That isn’t allowed. Highly unlikely to be the case.

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Shelefttheweb · 02/02/2023 12:46

Boiledbeetle · 02/02/2023 12:38

I've always wondered if the original decision was to force it to the next tier to get it into law. Because it made no sense as a judgement.

The problem is it relied on Maya taking it to appeal with all cost and stress that entails. There does seem a problem with this way of law-making that it depends too much on the parties involved. Those not involved don’t get to argue unless they know about in an have money to do so, so other perspectives are totally ignored.

BellaAmorosa · 02/02/2023 12:52

Or James Tayler isn't an idiot but was "blinded by the rainbow" (to use @femme phrase in Maya's case?