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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Elite sports people speaking up!

1000 replies

Signalbox · 30/01/2023 10:29

There seems to be an increasing number of sports people speaking up about the problem of males completing in women's sports which is positive. Thought it might be useful to have a thread of those who are risking sticking their heads above the parapet. Obviously the likes of Sharon Davies, Mara Yamauchi and Martina Navratilova have been bravely doing this for sometime but now we appear to have a few current athletes as well who are prepared to risk the mob to ensure women have fair competition. Is it too much to hope for that there will be a snowball effect?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
217
SinnerBoy · 01/04/2023 01:04

...eligible to receive a prize/ money or set a record or qualifying mark or count towards team...

It's a shame that this can't be applied retrospectively. It really has been a farrago seeing one or two men on the podium and the gushing speeches.

BellaAmorosa · 01/04/2023 06:41

Males with DSDs are a real blind spot for the men who run sports governing bodies. They focus on the DSD and forget about the maleness part. If testosterone reduction is irrelevant for males who claim to be women, it's irrelevant for all males. Sean Ingle at least made that point on the most recent Science of Sport podcast. If a DSD is debilitating, then the athlete belongs in the Paralympics. If not, then he can compete with all the other males in men's competition. But they see male DSD athletes as non-men, or not real men, which is horrible and ridiculous. For example, if they have 46 XY 5-ARD, they have been through male puberty and have male athletic performance advantage. The very advantage female categories exist to exclude.
There are different regulations for each DSD in athletics, which backs up my point that the SGBs must unconsciously believe in degrees of maleness and only "fully male" athletes get to compete in the men's events. It's nuts.

BellaAmorosa · 01/04/2023 06:51

Linda Blade, who is an athletics performance coach and head of athletics in Alberta, Canada is calling for the return (in elite sport) of revamped sex "passports" - one-off chromosome testing using a cheek swab or saliva to screen out males. Could easily be done through countries' anti-doping organisations.

Signalbox · 01/04/2023 08:11

BellaAmorosa · 01/04/2023 06:51

Linda Blade, who is an athletics performance coach and head of athletics in Alberta, Canada is calling for the return (in elite sport) of revamped sex "passports" - one-off chromosome testing using a cheek swab or saliva to screen out males. Could easily be done through countries' anti-doping organisations.

I’m just imagining the accusations of genocide at this suggestion.

OP posts:
Cileymyrus · 01/04/2023 08:12

DSD’s are something else and should not come under the trans umbrella.

i have no idea how they should be dealt with, but a kid who has believed themselves female, or who has been brought up female because they are phenotypically female, should not be told “they’re a man” because they are XY. It’s a very difficult condition to deal with and I strongly dislike some of the language around “he’s a man” to individuals with XY genotype but female phenotype.

even with modern science it’s not unusual for girls to only be diagnosed with DSD when their periods don’t start. Or when puberty doesn’t kick in properly. A child who has believed they are female or their lives shouldn’t have people telling them they’re a man.

we have no idea how an individual’s DSD affects them. There was a poster on here a few years ago who had a DSD and had some interesting insights. They left after it got quite aggressive that XY = man which was clearly not how they saw themselves.

like I said, dsd’s are tricky. It’s not the same as “woman feelz” and men thinking themselves into women’s spaces.

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 01/04/2023 09:03

Cileymyrus · 01/04/2023 08:12

DSD’s are something else and should not come under the trans umbrella.

i have no idea how they should be dealt with, but a kid who has believed themselves female, or who has been brought up female because they are phenotypically female, should not be told “they’re a man” because they are XY. It’s a very difficult condition to deal with and I strongly dislike some of the language around “he’s a man” to individuals with XY genotype but female phenotype.

even with modern science it’s not unusual for girls to only be diagnosed with DSD when their periods don’t start. Or when puberty doesn’t kick in properly. A child who has believed they are female or their lives shouldn’t have people telling them they’re a man.

we have no idea how an individual’s DSD affects them. There was a poster on here a few years ago who had a DSD and had some interesting insights. They left after it got quite aggressive that XY = man which was clearly not how they saw themselves.

like I said, dsd’s are tricky. It’s not the same as “woman feelz” and men thinking themselves into women’s spaces.

In terms of ‘Sport Sex’ it depends on the DSD.

The people you describe have CAIS and World Athletics are categorising CAIS as female, so the DSD rules do not apply.

Helleofabore · 01/04/2023 09:10

Signalbox · 01/04/2023 08:11

I’m just imagining the accusations of genocide at this suggestion.

But surely female athletes were not killed in the process that was only stopped in the late 90s.

Oh! You are right, it was so long ago that all those female athletes who died passed out of living memory…. Oh hang on…

I doubt even the group known for extreme hyperbole can claim genocide on this one.

Helleofabore · 01/04/2023 09:22

Cileymyrus · 01/04/2023 08:12

DSD’s are something else and should not come under the trans umbrella.

i have no idea how they should be dealt with, but a kid who has believed themselves female, or who has been brought up female because they are phenotypically female, should not be told “they’re a man” because they are XY. It’s a very difficult condition to deal with and I strongly dislike some of the language around “he’s a man” to individuals with XY genotype but female phenotype.

even with modern science it’s not unusual for girls to only be diagnosed with DSD when their periods don’t start. Or when puberty doesn’t kick in properly. A child who has believed they are female or their lives shouldn’t have people telling them they’re a man.

we have no idea how an individual’s DSD affects them. There was a poster on here a few years ago who had a DSD and had some interesting insights. They left after it got quite aggressive that XY = man which was clearly not how they saw themselves.

like I said, dsd’s are tricky. It’s not the same as “woman feelz” and men thinking themselves into women’s spaces.

No. They are not tricky at all though.

If a male has had the benefit of a male hormone puberty, they are excluded.

Whether a person with CAIS is categorised as male or female for their medical needs is different to sports. They can be included in the female category until such times as it may be (and it may not ever be) found that they have other advantages over female athletes.

Speaking generically about people with DSDs does make this ambiguous. Hence the discussion may need to be always now about how a body processes testosterone vs a body which cannot process testosterone. And remove the discussion about DSDs generally. In fact, not even discuss specific DSDs.

So female sports are for women, girls and any person who has a body type that has not processes testosterone from x development stage.

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 01/04/2023 09:33

Helleofabore · 01/04/2023 09:10

But surely female athletes were not killed in the process that was only stopped in the late 90s.

Oh! You are right, it was so long ago that all those female athletes who died passed out of living memory…. Oh hang on…

I doubt even the group known for extreme hyperbole can claim genocide on this one.

These WA rules apply to elite athletes only who are routinely blood, saliva and urine tested anyway. Chromosomes can be recorded from an existing sample.

Also, they already have to wee in front of doping agent (to ensure it’s their own sample) so the idea that elite athletes currently have bodily privacy is totes hilarious.
Any TRA who thinks they do doesn’t actually know much about sport. It’s a very obvious tell!

BellaAmorosa · 01/04/2023 10:11

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 01/04/2023 09:33

These WA rules apply to elite athletes only who are routinely blood, saliva and urine tested anyway. Chromosomes can be recorded from an existing sample.

Also, they already have to wee in front of doping agent (to ensure it’s their own sample) so the idea that elite athletes currently have bodily privacy is totes hilarious.
Any TRA who thinks they do doesn’t actually know much about sport. It’s a very obvious tell!

@DaughterOfPsychiatrist
Exactly!

Ourladycheesusedatum · 01/04/2023 11:29

SinnerBoy · 18/03/2023 15:00

Signalbox · Yesterday 09:01

- - Men have struggled with the 5nml limit imposed by other organisations and that’s why it used to be set at the ridiculous level of 10nml. - -

Hopefully it makes it much more difficult. But not impossible. It can’t be healthy though can it?

"Rachel" McKinnon, or Poison Ivy, or whatever he calls himself now has had an orchidectomy, to get his testosterone levels down, so that he can continue to cheat women out of their medals.

There is no proof that VI had that operation.
There is a thread on the new Zealand bird smallholding.
From my (shit) memory, VI claimed to have had it many years ago and went quiet on social media for a few months, but no proof (I dont know how anyone would prove it though)
And VI is very determined to mention exogenous testosterone as many times as possible which makes me wonder. Spidey senses tingle often with VI.

Plus even at current weight, VI is still winning, so even if operation was had, physiology says so much.

As an aside, I'm much heartened by this thread, there are many more sports people than I ever thought on womens side. I'm not on Twitter but if some of you who are could follow and raise the profile of these people? The more we do and all that.
When I get a new phone I'll get myself on Twitter and do the same.

user1477391263 · 01/04/2023 11:52

Re DSDs: I think that when one is faced with an ethical dilemma, it helps to go back to first principles: “Why do we have a women’s category in the first place?”

We have a women’s category so that every little girl can grow up thinking “I could win international competitions in a sport!” (OK, nearly all of them will not, but they can dream, up to a certain age!), so that women can watch sport and feel that “We as women are represented in top-level sport,” and so that governments etc. will have a strong motive to encourage girls’ and women’s sport and invest in it.

If people with intersex conditions end up getting all the medals in women’s sport, then I think that these reasons for establishing women’s category in sport will not be fulfilled. Women will not feel represented, parents of girls will know from day 1 that their daughters will never win anything at a high level (and will have to break the news to their daughters at some point), and governments who care about nothing but winning will not bother to invest in girl’s etc. sport; why bother, when it would clearly make more sense to just scout for talented intersex individuals and focus on them?

I feel for people with DSD, but I think the needs of women and girls need to come first.

Obviously, if any sporting body wants to create a separate intersex category, that’s fine, no problems.

Cileymyrus · 01/04/2023 12:10

user1477391263 · 01/04/2023 11:52

Re DSDs: I think that when one is faced with an ethical dilemma, it helps to go back to first principles: “Why do we have a women’s category in the first place?”

We have a women’s category so that every little girl can grow up thinking “I could win international competitions in a sport!” (OK, nearly all of them will not, but they can dream, up to a certain age!), so that women can watch sport and feel that “We as women are represented in top-level sport,” and so that governments etc. will have a strong motive to encourage girls’ and women’s sport and invest in it.

If people with intersex conditions end up getting all the medals in women’s sport, then I think that these reasons for establishing women’s category in sport will not be fulfilled. Women will not feel represented, parents of girls will know from day 1 that their daughters will never win anything at a high level (and will have to break the news to their daughters at some point), and governments who care about nothing but winning will not bother to invest in girl’s etc. sport; why bother, when it would clearly make more sense to just scout for talented intersex individuals and focus on them?

I feel for people with DSD, but I think the needs of women and girls need to come first.

Obviously, if any sporting body wants to create a separate intersex category, that’s fine, no problems.

Or possibly allow them to compete as “guests”?

over my many years of competing most organisers allowed non eligible participants to compete, but they were recorded as “guest”. Depending on the circs, if they medalled they were invited to the podium and awarded their medal but not recorded on the official results.

dd’s sport does it regularly. Everyone is completely fine with it as the true winners are recorded, but everyone gets a chance to compete. Gb champs competitors from other countries can compete for example, but cannot recieve an official place.

olympics etc might be different as it’s country representatives, but up to national and international level why not.

trans athletes just no.

NotBadConsidering · 01/04/2023 12:14

I don’t feel for the particular DSD athletes at all. They know they’re male, have been told they’re male, know they have male advantage and have continued to compete, taking medals, prize money, sponsorship and opportunities from women. Fuck them.

There’s no need for an intersex category because they can compete in their own sex category, for males. The fact they wouldn’t be any good in that category is what stops them, not the lack of opportunity.

What would an intersex category look like? It would just be dominated by a small group of males who can’t cut it in the male category. No females with DSDs would be in that group, so what’s the point of a category for males who just aren’t good enough? I’m not good enough to be an elite athlete either, do I get a category? There’s really no point so sporting bodies aren’t going to bother.

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 01/04/2023 12:19

Exactly. The point of the Women’s Category is so that female athletes have meaningful and fair competition.

DSD conditions refers to quite a number of very different diagnosis and by introducing the concept of ‘Sport Sex’ (which does not necessarily match up with legal sex or chromosomal sex nor with gender identity) allows the DSD athletes who have no physiological advantage from a male puberty in (eg Dutee Chand). It also allows for female athletes who identify as trans and have changed their legal sex to nonbinary or male to continue to compete in the female category as long as they comply with all the regulations on performance enhancing drugs.

DSD athletes who have a ‘sport sex’ of male obvs can’t compete in a female category.

Sports are about bodies, not identities.

in other news, saw this on Twitter. Made me smile (no idea who their opponents were but as long as all involved were content, I thought it rather lovely).
Not being able to compete in a closed category or on a opposite sex team doesn’t mean exclusion from the entirety of sport.

Cileymyrus · 01/04/2023 12:24

NotBadConsidering · 01/04/2023 12:14

I don’t feel for the particular DSD athletes at all. They know they’re male, have been told they’re male, know they have male advantage and have continued to compete, taking medals, prize money, sponsorship and opportunities from women. Fuck them.

There’s no need for an intersex category because they can compete in their own sex category, for males. The fact they wouldn’t be any good in that category is what stops them, not the lack of opportunity.

What would an intersex category look like? It would just be dominated by a small group of males who can’t cut it in the male category. No females with DSDs would be in that group, so what’s the point of a category for males who just aren’t good enough? I’m not good enough to be an elite athlete either, do I get a category? There’s really no point so sporting bodies aren’t going to bother.

You clearly have had no dealings with anyone with a DSD.

it’s not as simple as “they know they’re men”. Externally they may appear completely female, may have been brought up female. They may not have found out about their DSD until puberty.

I am not saying they should be allowed to compete in women’s categories as their advantages are unknown. But it is out of order to say they are men.

NotBadConsidering · 01/04/2023 12:33

Cileymyrus · 01/04/2023 12:24

You clearly have had no dealings with anyone with a DSD.

it’s not as simple as “they know they’re men”. Externally they may appear completely female, may have been brought up female. They may not have found out about their DSD until puberty.

I am not saying they should be allowed to compete in women’s categories as their advantages are unknown. But it is out of order to say they are men.

I have plenty to do with people with DSDs. 🤨

I’m not talking about “people”. I stated I’m talking about the particular athletes who have competed recently. Semenya, Niyonsaba, Mboma etc. They know they are male. I didn’t originally say men. I don’t care how they see themselves, or when they found out. They are male, and yet they continued to compete in the women’s category. Because they knew their male advantage could be translated into real winnings. Semenya won a lot of Diamond League money despite knowing about the unfair advantage.

And I don’t care if it’s “out of order” to call them men.

Man:
Noun: adult human male.

These athletes are adult human males.

All three medalists at the Rio Olympics’ women’s 800m were adult human males. That’s out of order.

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 01/04/2023 12:33

Cileymyrus · 01/04/2023 12:24

You clearly have had no dealings with anyone with a DSD.

it’s not as simple as “they know they’re men”. Externally they may appear completely female, may have been brought up female. They may not have found out about their DSD until puberty.

I am not saying they should be allowed to compete in women’s categories as their advantages are unknown. But it is out of order to say they are men.

Depends on the DSD.
The children who genuinely are unaware until puberty will likely have a sports sex of female. They won’t be excluded from the female category.

But there are children who are diagnosed with DSDs in childhood who are actively targeted by athletics coaches who know they were erroneously assigned female at birth*
It’s a form of cheating. Never underestimate the dirty tricks that go on at internal elite level.

*Wow! I just got to use that phrase as it was actually intended to be used 😆

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 01/04/2023 12:34

International elite, not internal elite! Obvs.

BellaAmorosa · 01/04/2023 12:51

DSDs do not belong under the trans umbrella (though that is what the letter I in the acronym stands for) but the sex category in sport should be about male and female bodies. A male with a DSD is male. A male with an outwardly feminine phenotype.

I question whether a chromosomal test on a teenage CAIS athlete which revealed their condition would really come as a shock. Athletes typically break into elite sport in their late teens at the earliest. Even if we are talking about athletes from poorer countries without the means to do sophisticated sex testing of babies, a 17- or 18-year-old "girl" who has never had a period or gone through puberty would have some inkling that something was up. But let's say that it is a shock, that is not the concern of regulatory bodies. Their job is to promote the values of sport - safety, fairness and inclusion. If we are expected to not bat an eye at the sight of very masculine-looking "women" (who are not women, they are males with DSDs) in women's events, why can't we accept feminine-looking men (who actually are male) in men's events? Of course they would be very unlikely to make it to a high level because of their DSD, but that is the case for many male athletes who suffer from debilitating conditions.

I about taking puberty as the dividing line for several reasons. It's hard to judge exactly when puberty starts, and boys benefit from two mini-testosterone surges before the main event which give them a significant advantage over girls. In practice, a boy whose puberty had been arrested before Tanner stage 2 would probably not be healthy enough to have any sort of athletic career, but you never know what advances in treatment might be available in the future to mitigate the problems of lack of testosterone. Every DSD is sex-specific, therefore it is easy to know who to exclude from the female category. The principle of female sport for females only is important.

Going back to DSD athletes, CAIS women obviously cannot benefit from the supercharging effect of male puberty but they still don't have the disadvantages of female puberty. They can train the same way every day, training does not have to adapted to fit around their hormonal cycle. They will never have a pregnancy scare before a major competition, or suffer crippling pain during it. While not as powerful as men without CAIS, they grow taller than women and greater height is an advantage in many sports. Those are just some examples, and the effect is cumulative. CAIS women are very significantly over-represented at high levels of women's sport therefore there is a strong presumption of advantage.

Unfair advantages are deemed to be so either because of their source or their magnitude or both. Being heavier gives you a big advantage in rowing, weightlifting and boxing, so there are weight categories in all these sports. Height is an advantage but not so significant that we need special categories. All the tall people will have an advantage in basketball or netball, but you still get 5-foot 6 women in high level netball. Being male is the most significant advantage of all. So a CAIS male should be excluded because the source of the advantage/lack of female disadvantage is that they are male. If these athletes were female, with a female-specific DSD which gave them a similar advantage, that might be different.
Categories are created to exclude athletes as a class - not to exclude individuals. Males are excluded from the female category, therefore weaker males are as ineligible as stronger ones.

Being CAIS is a personal matter for the individual. They may embrace their condition or it may cause them sorrow. But it is their burden, not that of their competitors and it is oppressive to make it so. Is it fair on the women competitors to make them compete with an athlete who has natural performance advantages because they are male? I say no.

BellaAmorosa · 01/04/2023 12:54

*I disagree about taking puberty as the dividing line

BellaAmorosa · 01/04/2023 12:55

And I see most of my points have been made already! I wrote this then had to pop out before I pressed "post".

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 01/04/2023 13:09

I’m also dubious about male puberty as the dividing line as we use different growth trajectory charts from birth (I don’t think the NHS gives you a physical little red book anymore but the charts in those were pink or blue!)

I’m still inclined towards thinking the new rules are ok for now (so much better than before!) and the situation with DSD athletes should continue to be monitored (interestingly I recently learned that one of the genes for male height is inherited via the Y chromosome and doesn’t need pubertal testosterone to activate, which is presumably why so many of the male paediatric transitioner population are taller than female peers even after total pubertal blockade, and why CAIS adults look like taller than average females: https://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2001/09/11/363100.htm )

I take on board all your points re: menstrual cycle and pregnancy affecting female athletes in a way that CAIS athletes will never have to consider. I think it’s a good argument for future exclusion from the female category, now that we are finally acknowledging and studying the effects of the menstrual cycle on the training and competition schedules of female athletes.

I doubt we’ll ever see elite athletes who gender transitioned as children due to the adverse effects of medical and surgical interventions.

Genes explain why men are taller › News in Science (ABC Science)

https://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2001/09/11/363100.htm

BellaAmorosa · 01/04/2023 13:39

@DaughterOfPsychiatrist
Great post, thanks for the citations.

My overall feeling is that the thinking behind the current regulations is a combination of a) dividing athletes into men and non-men and b) Be Kind.
And females lose out, as PPs say. Whether it's DSD males, or trans athletes being allowed into opposite sex categories, no-one ever seems to grasp that the effect is asymmetric.

SinnerBoy · 01/04/2023 13:48

Ourladycheesusedatum · Today 11:29

Thank you for your clarification. Its my considered opinion that he's a cheat, so claiming something like that would fit.

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