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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Elite sports people speaking up!

1000 replies

Signalbox · 30/01/2023 10:29

There seems to be an increasing number of sports people speaking up about the problem of males completing in women's sports which is positive. Thought it might be useful to have a thread of those who are risking sticking their heads above the parapet. Obviously the likes of Sharon Davies, Mara Yamauchi and Martina Navratilova have been bravely doing this for sometime but now we appear to have a few current athletes as well who are prepared to risk the mob to ensure women have fair competition. Is it too much to hope for that there will be a snowball effect?

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Thread gallery
217
AlecTrevelyan006 · 20/05/2023 10:11

In other news... the women's under-17 Euros are currently underway in Estonia. England's young Lionesses will no doubt do the country proud...

Elite sports people speaking up!
DysonSpheres · 20/05/2023 10:14

That Telegraph article is excellent it has made me cry. What's happening is so fundamentally wrong. Hearing Hannah talk about the thrill of racing and seeing she's been forced to retire. Just so bloody wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong and cruel. These sporting bodies obviously hate women.

Signalbox · 21/05/2023 08:15

Another woman misses out on an opportunity because a man takes her place…

https://twitter.com/icons_women/status/1660148227910537216

Trans-identifying male, Athena Ryan (Jr) took 2nd today in the “Girls 1600m” at a CA State Championship qualifier meet in Dublin, CA.

Ryan beamed while 4th place senior, Adeline Johnson gave a thumb down after losing the chance to advance to the State Championships by 1 spot.

https://twitter.com/icons_women/status/1660148227910537216

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SinnerBoy · 21/05/2023 22:28

AlecTrevelyan006 · Yesterday 10:11

Can you explain, please? I've only got my phone and the photo is quite small.

Misstache · 22/05/2023 09:19

Signalbox · 21/05/2023 08:15

Another woman misses out on an opportunity because a man takes her place…

https://twitter.com/icons_women/status/1660148227910537216

Trans-identifying male, Athena Ryan (Jr) took 2nd today in the “Girls 1600m” at a CA State Championship qualifier meet in Dublin, CA.

Ryan beamed while 4th place senior, Adeline Johnson gave a thumb down after losing the chance to advance to the State Championships by 1 spot.

The girl that beat Ryan, Hanne Thomsen, is one of the top sophomores in the country (9:55 at Arcadia and 4:45 as a freshman). She is the defending state 3200 champion.

Third place finisher, Elle Buckley, was #1 on Campo's 13th place NXN team and 26th overall at NXN.

These aren’t just obscure runners: these are some of the top prospects in girls running, and it will radically impact the sport to have Trans athletes pushing girls out of competition.

Adeline Johnson is able to go to state only because Buckley has declared in the 3200 only, not because Ryan feels any shame about taking away a spot.

I wonder WHY Ryan was able to kick so well? A mystery.

https://ca.milesplit.com/videos/656783/athena-ryan-goes-from-4th-to-2nd-in-final-100m-of-1600m

Athena Ryan goes from 4th to 2nd in final 100m of 1600m | CIF-North Coast Section Meet of Champions

CIF-North Coast Section Meet of Champions

https://ca.milesplit.com/videos/656783/athena-ryan-goes-from-4th-to-2nd-in-final-100m-of-1600m

Misstache · 22/05/2023 09:46

I really urge people to read Lauren Fleshman’s book to understand what girls go through in running. There are huge drop out rates in girls’ sports and running is one of the worst. Girls before puberty are extremely fast. It is not uncommon at all to be in a race and be crushed by some tiny speedy 13 year old.

But while boys develop in a linear way, getting faster through puberty as testosterone surges, girls often show dips in performance. A young 13/14 year old girl wins all the races, then starts developing and sees her performance fall off. This is where you see rampant eating disorders as girls try to get the tiny bodies they believe are necessary to win. This isn’t helped by the very scant uniforms “elite” women and girls wear. Girls end up ruining their running careers and life by trying to be as thin as possible (coupled with the high anxiety and perfectionist types than gravitate to running as well.)

In college, age 18-23, men get their biggest surge in testosterone and you expect to see big jumps in performance. At the same time, women are at their highest surge of estrogen. Right when top programs are putting intense pressure on women to win to “deserve” their scholarship is right when many women experience body changes. If you are patient, your body will adjust but coaches want to win, so women are given no grace and the next young recruit will take her spot. Because sports are based on male performance and development, coaches and programs aren’t great about understanding the different development patterns of girls and women or things like periods and training. Huge shaming and pressure is put on women leading to injuries, eating disorders, depression, and dropping from the sport.

Many of us come back to the sport in our late 20s, 30s and 40s and find we are running great, can run amazing after giving birth, and can be strong and fast without starving our bodies. We’ve learned to train with our bodies not against them. Many seek out women coaches and all-women groups.

Trans girls and women in the sport don’t only have the unfair biological advantage, it also contributes to the culture in which female bodies and development are shamed and seen as a negative. Coaches used to say “boobs, butts, and boys” were the reason girls performance dropped - blaming and shaming struggling girls for being “fat” and “shallow” and “lazy” rather than simply having different biological development. Mary Cain, a brilliant young star, was publicly berated and called fat by Nike Coach Alberto Salazar, leaving her self-harming as a result. How do you think those girls now feel not only lining up against someone with male puberty but also no breasts, etc.? Those girls are going to feel they have to starve themselves to look as little like a woman as possible in order to win.

The athlete, Ryan, is a child doing what they believe they have a right to so it’s the responsibility of their coaches and parents to teach them. Ryan should be able to run, as should everyone. Running is a great sport. But Ryan should either compete in the male category or if Ryan wants to run for fun and not compete or run to improve their times and challenge themself there are lots of runners who never qualify to big meets but enjoy the sport anyway. But Ryan should not be competing with elite girls. Ryan shouldn’t be bullied or treated badly, they are very young. But this situation isn’t just unfair for the girls it’s really dangerous for the development and health of young female athletes.

Zeugma · 22/05/2023 11:25

There’s another trans-identifying male going through to the state finals too: Lorelei Barrett. Another qualifier in the “Girls 1600m” race.

https://twitter.com/icons_women/status/1660401972200222720?s=12

https://twitter.com/icons_women/status/1660401972200222720?s=12

BellaAmorosa · 22/05/2023 11:45

Misstache · 22/05/2023 09:46

I really urge people to read Lauren Fleshman’s book to understand what girls go through in running. There are huge drop out rates in girls’ sports and running is one of the worst. Girls before puberty are extremely fast. It is not uncommon at all to be in a race and be crushed by some tiny speedy 13 year old.

But while boys develop in a linear way, getting faster through puberty as testosterone surges, girls often show dips in performance. A young 13/14 year old girl wins all the races, then starts developing and sees her performance fall off. This is where you see rampant eating disorders as girls try to get the tiny bodies they believe are necessary to win. This isn’t helped by the very scant uniforms “elite” women and girls wear. Girls end up ruining their running careers and life by trying to be as thin as possible (coupled with the high anxiety and perfectionist types than gravitate to running as well.)

In college, age 18-23, men get their biggest surge in testosterone and you expect to see big jumps in performance. At the same time, women are at their highest surge of estrogen. Right when top programs are putting intense pressure on women to win to “deserve” their scholarship is right when many women experience body changes. If you are patient, your body will adjust but coaches want to win, so women are given no grace and the next young recruit will take her spot. Because sports are based on male performance and development, coaches and programs aren’t great about understanding the different development patterns of girls and women or things like periods and training. Huge shaming and pressure is put on women leading to injuries, eating disorders, depression, and dropping from the sport.

Many of us come back to the sport in our late 20s, 30s and 40s and find we are running great, can run amazing after giving birth, and can be strong and fast without starving our bodies. We’ve learned to train with our bodies not against them. Many seek out women coaches and all-women groups.

Trans girls and women in the sport don’t only have the unfair biological advantage, it also contributes to the culture in which female bodies and development are shamed and seen as a negative. Coaches used to say “boobs, butts, and boys” were the reason girls performance dropped - blaming and shaming struggling girls for being “fat” and “shallow” and “lazy” rather than simply having different biological development. Mary Cain, a brilliant young star, was publicly berated and called fat by Nike Coach Alberto Salazar, leaving her self-harming as a result. How do you think those girls now feel not only lining up against someone with male puberty but also no breasts, etc.? Those girls are going to feel they have to starve themselves to look as little like a woman as possible in order to win.

The athlete, Ryan, is a child doing what they believe they have a right to so it’s the responsibility of their coaches and parents to teach them. Ryan should be able to run, as should everyone. Running is a great sport. But Ryan should either compete in the male category or if Ryan wants to run for fun and not compete or run to improve their times and challenge themself there are lots of runners who never qualify to big meets but enjoy the sport anyway. But Ryan should not be competing with elite girls. Ryan shouldn’t be bullied or treated badly, they are very young. But this situation isn’t just unfair for the girls it’s really dangerous for the development and health of young female athletes.

Brilliantly summed up. A depressing and infuriating read. It's like Invisible Women all over again.
Society has to get its head around the fact that in so many ways, female patterns are different to male patterns - and that that is fine and should be catered for. It's not special treatment, it's a recognition that there are two types of human being. Women and girls are not just a deviation from the male norm.

@Misstache Can I just beg you to not use "women" and "girls" to describe or indicate male people? Unless you believe that they are women/girls of course, but it doesn't seem as if you do. It gives currency to the idea that they are some category of women/girls.

Misstache · 22/05/2023 18:55

OMG there’s not ONE but TWO boys running in the California girls 1600 state meet:

https://ca.milesplit.com/videos/586310/buckleys-lorelei-barrett-headed-to-state

here is video of the race. In the background you can hear a parent say “three girls and one boy” when they say four girls in the lead.

Buckley's Lorelei Barrett-Headed to State | CIF-SS Division Finals

CIF-SS Division Finals

https://ca.milesplit.com/videos/586310/buckleys-lorelei-barrett-headed-to-state

Misstache · 22/05/2023 19:16

Also notice how easily the boy sails to the front of the pack at like 1:32. Look at the stride compared to the girls: either Barrett has the worst most inefficient form ever in which case it’s extra galling being able to use testosterone to beat girls, or Barrett isn’t even trying - notice the complete lack of back kick or any knee lift at all. That is a jogging stride, not full out racing. It’s like Lia Thomas sandbagging races.

I’ve also not seen so many girls fall in a race before I wonder if they were thrown off by who they had to race.

MrGHardy · 23/05/2023 01:20

"I know I always have something in me"

Yea, it's called the Y chromosome.

WarningToTheCurious · 23/05/2023 12:35

IcakethereforeIam · 23/05/2023 11:42

Indoor rowing: Marjorie Roome.

Also took Gold at the World Indoor Rowing champs 2023 in Women's 70+ 500m:

1 GBR Marjorie Roome 01:54.3
2 AUS Susan Kemp 02:03.9
3 CAN Barb Round 02:05.0
4 GBR Valerie Coleman 02:54.7

Men's winning time for that category was 01:36.8.

https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1609486406803406849?s=20

Elite sports people speaking up!
MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/05/2023 14:42

IcakethereforeIam · 23/05/2023 11:42

16 of the women's record in indoor rowing now held by men? 16!!!!! 😡

Signalbox · 23/05/2023 20:04

Fucking hell this Twitter thread by WRN is incredible…

WRN has discovered that a MAN who is an ATTEMPTED MURDERER still holds the course record in the FEMALE category of Aberystwyth Park Run.

Michael ("Lauren") Jeska was jailed for 18 years in 2017 for a horrific attack amid a dispute over his eligibility to compete in the fell running female category.

Oh, and he's currently in a FEMALE prison - Foston Hall

Jeska, 42, admitted stabbing Ralph Knibbs in the head and neck at Alexander Stadium in March 2016, and causing actual bodily harm to two other UK Athletics officials, Kevan Taylor and Tim Begley, who tried to intervene during the attack.

https://twitter.com/WomensRightsNet/status/1661053626561839122

https://twitter.com/WomensRightsNet/status/1661053626561839122

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Signalbox · 23/05/2023 20:11

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/05/2023 14:42

16 of the women's record in indoor rowing now held by men? 16!!!!! 😡

I’ve just read on John Pike’s Twitter that British Rowing are going to wait til the end of the season until they announce their new policy for inclusion of men in the female category. So frustrating.

https://twitter.com/runthinkwrite/status/1661049371310407689

British Rowing statement here…

https://www.britishrowing.org/2023/05/an-update-from-the-british-rowing-board-meeting-on-22-05-23/

First of all, we would like to thank everyone who participated in the survey on British Rowing’s policy on Transgender and Non-Binary Inclusion in competition and lent their voice to this important discussion.
Following yesterday’s British Rowing Board meeting where its current policy was reviewed, we can confirm that no decisions made will affect the remainder of the summer racing season (running through until mid-September).
Any updates to our guidance after that will be communicated in good time ahead of the next period of racing.

https://twitter.com/runthinkwrite/status/1661049371310407689

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BellaAmorosa · 23/05/2023 20:37

I bet they don't like the responses they have received and are buying time to find excuses to do what they wanted to do all along.

IcakethereforeIam · 23/05/2023 21:06

Jeska's come up before. He said women weren't training hard enough.

OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit · 24/05/2023 20:35

GailBlancheViola · 24/05/2023 19:24

How can some babies get more testosterone in utero when they aren't 'assigned' as boys or girls until they are born? Surely all babies are identical cabbage patch dolls until the midwife decides if they will get a blue baby grow with diggers on it or a pink one with 'be kind' on it?

Misstache · 24/05/2023 21:08

Women should fundraise the travel to send a fast female into Aberystwyth to beat Jeska’s record. If Mara Yamauchi still ran she could do it…

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DarkDayforMN · 26/05/2023 12:56

That’s brilliant! 🚴‍♀️🚴‍♀️ well done to all the women in cycling who’ve been fighting for this.

Emily Bridges comes off as a right idiot in that article. I also loved the line “sport should be more inclusive, with open categories criticised for being discriminatory.” Open categories criticised for being discriminatory! Anyone whose brain isn’t absolutely mulched by TRA doublethink should find that thought-provoking.

Daley 'furious' about Fina transgender ban

Olympic diving champion Tom Daley says he is "furious" at his sport's world governing body for voting to stop transgender athletes from competing in women's elite events.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/diving/61948675

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