Update on changes to transgender prisoner policy framework

[ickky]

Couldn't see this anywhere here.

Not perfect but better than nothing.

www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-changes-to-transgender-prisoner-policy-framework?fbclid=IwAR0P6HBACGyN1GzcNumX92RqJtCenpQyM_uvUsH65mOop-ciJogfHM9ZJLI

Wow.

Except the last paragraph😡

It's something. But tonight that rapist is in a Scottish woman's prison and it makes me feel sick.

It's a start. For E&W. But I think we'll have to continue being vigilant about those weasel words "exceptional circumstances."

The term ‘transgender women’ yanks my chain.

They are no kind of women. How dare the government website call them women?

The fucking creep of language. RMW slipping in ‘trans female’ into the convo yesterday too. There is no such thing as a male female or a male woman.

THE☀IT IS SO BRIGHT

Well Scotland is a lost cause - on the basis that they will never ever do anything like England.

Someone will sue one of these days. Risk assessments are pretty subjective things.

Still, it can't all be about human rights as I don't think prisoners get the vote so it's not like the Government really don't have teeth about this, it's just they don't feel pressured on the issue.

Sorry I just can't help myself at the moment !

Why what a very valid question you have there!

What is the problem?

Oh yeah you gave them the power to legally be a woman you Muppets

Get comfy........🍷whilst you wait

Well the sex offenders men's wing is usually where prisoners are kept the most safely. That will do, especially as most are men AND sex offenders.

Can't see the issue myself. Let the men be the men's problem to solve because it's not the bloody women's problem.the vwomen in the prisons didn't pass the law that allowed this shit show.

🤣

I'm trying to find that cartoon of three naked and bepenised people in the women's shower room - all looking at each other in rage and saying, 'Well, this sucks!' A third space for 'transwomen' prisoners, staffed by men, with no-one to validate them all... how awful...

Sorry, quote fail! I was responding to Ickky's:

'I also think if they were to bring in the third space, it would only need to be a very small one as I think the numbers would dwindle fairly quickly.'

Does anyone know whether transwomen can work as prison officers in the female estate?

This is such an important moment. How our state could have thought housing men with women based on their say so is utterly maddening and infuriating, so to acknowledge this is a bad idea is huge.

My reading of the statement around exceptional circumstances and with ministerial approval is the government's attempt to deal with GRCs and to stay within the messy law in this area (maybe want to tidy that up?). In practical terms it is hard to imagine a minister approving a sex offender or a man without surgery to go into the female estate.

Makes Sturgeon and the SNP look utterly barbaric - hilarious considering all their progressive and kind positioning. Now crumbled to dust.

It may not be perfect but for women in prison who have had to put up with this it is a huge deal. Here is to them and their safety.

I would think yes. If it's like the police thinking on this subject, and also because prison officers can make arrests. Not sure what the legislation is for this but for police officers it's PACE - police and criminal evidence act. It specifically says all types of searches must be carried out by an officer of the same sex as the person detained. But then you've had "guidance" which muddies the water with gender and not sex. And now we have the Haldane judgement.

And for female officers in purportedly women's prisons, the worst has happened. This is from April 2020:

www.thesun.co.uk/news/11381963/female-prison-officers-raped-trans-rory-stewart/

FEMALE prison officers have been raped by male-bodied inmates who self-identify as trans women, said a former Tory minister.
London Mayoral candidate Rory Stewart who oversaw prisons in 2018 and 2019, made the comments when asked in an interview whether anyone who identifies as a woman should be allowed to access female-only spaces.
[[https://www.thesun.co.uk/topic/prison/
Prison]]n policies on allowing male-bodied inmates who self-identify as trans women came under scrutiny in 2018 with the high profile case of trans woman Karen Whitee who attacked two inmates after being moved to a women's prison.
White, who was born Stephen Wood, was handed a life sentence for two rapes outside of jail and two sexual assaults on women in HMP New Hall, Wakefield

There should be no exceptions. Men are men and remain so regardless of their identity. Most women don't 'identify as women' therefore there is no rationale or housing any male with females - it's not a coherent category. Women are not responsible for keeping men safe. The men's prison needs to be able to accomodate them.

My reading of the statement around exceptional circumstances and with ministerial approval is the government's attempt to deal with GRCs and to stay within the messy law in this area (maybe want to tidy that up?). In practical terms it is hard to imagine a minister approving a sex offender or a man without surgery to go into the female estate.

Ministerial approval is a good move, it means that they are responsible for the decision and therefore can be/will be held personally accountable, the buck stops with them, and politicians are not keen on being held personally accountable for their actions or decisions.

Very good to see this. How we ever got to this stupid stupid position of putting Males into women's prison though is still hard to comprehend.

In essence, a long and hard campaign by government funded political lobbies who went on, and on, and on, and on, with a strong corporate marketing approach and a lot of emoting and hyperbole and lies. And used a lot of manipulative language and techniques. Part of the ideology sold was that women did not matter, that women were not even to be considered because these male's equality and liberty and recognition was all important. And it appealed heavily to a number of weaknesses in the political system and its leaders, one of which was a quick and easy way to virtue and popularity and coolness of image, and another of which was the hard baked in misogyny that I think few of us realised was as big a problem as it is.

I did read the guidelines on this a while back. The answer is yes, afair. Will try and find it. Also can't remember if it was Scotland or E&W ...

I think this is massively encouraging. Let's not forget that only 18 months ago a female prisoner lost her challenge to the MoJ about housing trans prisoners in female prisons. So the MoJ didn't have to make any changes - it was acting within the law. The fact that it has made this change, which means, surely, that very few male-bodied people will now end up in women's prisons, is really good news, and shows that the government is determined to take a strong stance.

The other reason it's good news is that it contrasts so strongly with the policy in Scotland, which is all about protecting the rights and safety of the trans prisoner, not female prisoners. It isolates Sturgeon's government even further. Women in Scotland will, I think, be even more angry than they already are.

I think this is it. I remember it all being really confused and confusing.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4680128-good-news-prison-searches-to-be-same-sex-only

Sorry the answer is that yes transwomen can work as officers - there are male officers working in the female estate as it is.

The specific issues discussed in that thread were relating to searching and intimate searches.

Meanwhile in Scotland...

news.sky.com/story/amp/fresh-trans-prisoner-row-as-girls-stalker-approved-for-move-to-womens-jail-12797405