Owen Jones meltdown about gender ideology opposers COMMENTED.

[KateFromTheInternet]

Is Owen Jones a proper journalist or just a youtuber who gets invited to write columns for the Guardian?

The other day he went on a rabid rant directed at the opposers of gender ideology. There was a on it covered by Mr Menno, and this shorter direct response 🤣

Wish more people, and with bigger platforms, would put that angry little man in his place.

I wrote "There was a 25min Kellie-Jay Keene video" and placed a link thinking I was creating a link, not a thumbnail. Ah well.

Wow, Kellie is awesome.

KC watched it over a couple of live streams.

I’ve not listened yet but added them here for the nice, tidy library effect!

I endured a full 25 minute video from OJ the other day, just so I could try and understand where he is coming from. This is what I gathered:

• The sense of self you have is something you cannot control - trans people have a sense of being in the wrong body and they cannot control it
• This is the same as being gay - you don't know why you are gay and there is nothing you can do about it
• Because trans people cannot control these feelings, we must be kind and have 'humanity'
• The discrimination against trans people comes from the same place that homophobia came from - the being different and it being unnatural

So I guess it is a pretty understandable standpoint from his POV as a gay man.

The problem I think that he does not hear from women / literally most people is:

• Biology. You literally cannot become a woman if you were born a man
• Many people who transition are gay - and does this mean there is a possibility they are actually rejecting their homosexuality to appear 'straight'? I believe these people are called Straight Trans People these days
• There are many trans people who detransition (see r/detrans on reddit for horrifying tales) and so, is there a possibility that this is something that is not the same as being homosexual? It is rare to find a homosexual man become straight - it might happen but I've never known it. Why is detransitioning a thing? Does it point to the possibility that other factors are at play? For example, social contagion. History is full of social contagion stories, why would this not be possible here?
• I am unsure as to how you would argue with him about the fact that this tramples over women's rights other than to say everything that has been said. It is just hard because he constantly talks about having 'humanity' yet seems to have none for female rape victims or domestic violence victims. This point is where the anger lies between us and him. Claims of kindness, yet none shown towards women, only people who have 'suffered in the same way as him'

Haha nice! Great stuff if this thread becomes a compilation of responses to this little dude! 🤣

Clive and Dennis mock LOJ’s obviously read-from-a-script rant (from 51.00 onwards)

and The State Media just sped LOJ’s original footage up in a comical manner (by the end he sounds like a cartoon duck 🦆)

He makes a false equivalency.

1. Being homosexual is not "a sense of self". It's sexual attraction to others. And he should know that, since he is a gay man, meaning he would never, ever be attracted to a "transman" regardless of the transmen's "sense of self" and of HIS OWN "sense of self".

2. The "sense of self" that transpeople have *if you believe in "truetrans" comes from the impossible feat of feeling that you're something you can't physically, materially, be. No one can "have a sense of being" the opposite sex, because the opposite sex is fully external to each of us, and all we can know about it is external observation and our own reading of it, from outside.

3. No other "sense of self" in the world requires anyone to fully modify their body or abuse wrong hormones/meds to be fulfilled.

You are right.

1. Biology (see above)
2. The "trans identified" people who aren't just porn-addict AGPs are (and have historically been) homosexuals bullied into being straight, so the only solution to "be straight" is to be the opposite sex. How broken your spirit has to be for you to actually come to this conclusion?
3. Nowadays, people (esp. children) are presented with the concept of "trans" even before they know about their sexuality, or "gender conformity". It's no wonder that there are so many detransitioners, since all were sold a lie. There was no "inner sense of self" that you are "actually the opposite sex", there was "you like this, so you are this. Take these meds, chop these bits, that will cure you".
4. It tramples over women's rights because being "kind" and having "humanity" are being conflated with "your sense of consent is hateful. Date this transbian, or you have no humanity. Give way to this massive transwoman to play sports against you, or you have no humanity. If "she" wins and gets your scholarship, it's because maybe, just maybe, you're not so good at your sport, or you're a tad lazy and should try harder. Accept this peepy bepenised transwoman in your locker room or you have no humanity. Women rape too, look at all the stats of women raping AND IMPREGNATING other women! Celebrate these men explaining "girlhood" to you. Accept that the new definition of woman is "whoever likes performing sexist misogynistic stereotypes or porn tropes". If you say you're a woman, you have no humanity, because some males are women too, so please be kind and use other word to define yourself so as not to upset those dudes, who can totally call themselves "women" with no prefix", etc. It tramples over women's rights because the moment you can no longer define what a woman is, there are no rights you can fight for.

ie: "Women shouldnt be discriminated against / have no pay gap" - cue to "stats" about how this is a "lie" and "doesn't happen" because look at so many women are in directors' boards in company or earn the same (nevermind that all these women making the difference smaller are men, this disclaimer has been erased already)

Oh yes, haha this video used The Estate's edit for the commentary, and credited The Estate on Twitter

Saving Clive Simpson's to watch later, podcast-style :)

This was briliant :)
The video where they continually speed up OJ throughout the course of the video was soo funny. I imagine that's what he sounds like in his own head.

He's a tiresome, ranty, angry man. I have no idea why anyone takes him seriously. There are plenty of them to choose from.

This is a very helpful thread. Wish I had the patience to set out my arguments as other posters do.
Instead my posts often turn sarcastic and I usually bin them.

But then I've given up trying to argue with alt right libertarians and fundamentalist Christians too. Although they are less frightening than Owen Jones , who is meant to be my fellow socialist.

The sense of self you have is something you cannot control - trans people have a sense of being in the wrong body and they cannot control it

There are many other groups which also have a disordered sense of self, which they can’t control. Many of those are certifiably or criminally insane.

Very much this

Jones was a print “journalist” long before he took to youtube. Popular youtubers can make decent money on it (so I'm told). Maybe he is concerned the Guardian might get weary of him eventually.

What about when your self is co-opted by other people.
For instance if you self ID as a lesbian attracted to other females. Is that OK?

"Is Owen Jones a proper journalist or just a youtuber who gets invited to write columns for the Guardian?"

If it were simply, some people feel they are the opposite sex, and everyone should be kind, then third spaces would be absolutely acceptable (and it absolutely would be to many transsexuals). The difference is that there are now men for whom the performative element is the whole thing. They need a female audience who accept, or are forced to accept(not sure which is preferable) them as actual women

‘Autogynaphilia, the feeling of sexual arousal some men feel as they pretend to be women, is according to some researchers behind many or even most cases of gender dysphoria among those born as men.’ - from Nick Timothy in the Telegraph 23/1/23

‘Autogynaphilia, the feeling of sexual arousal some men feel as they pretend to be women, is according to some researchers behind many or even most cases of gender dysphoria among those born as men.’ - from Nick Timothy in the Telegraph 23/1/23

Ray Blanchard has suggested 75%

Does anyone take him seriously? The only time I've heard him was in this Sundays pick of the week which featured him gabbling over Andrew Doyle who was trying to be civil - no idea now what point OJ was actually trying to make tbh.

That's really interesting, @hamstersarse

Excellent post @hamstersarse. I think the Jungian perspective is very helpful in this present moment.

That's really interesting @hamstersarse.

This reply has been deleted
Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Do the talk guidelines suggest we refrain from discussing Jung? Really?

I love the sped up version! It reminds me of when people used to call him Sanctimonious Morph