Seeking straightforward answers to GRRBill question

[morningtoncrescent62]

I'll put my hands up at the outset to not being the most articulate person. I think I understand something, but when I'm asked, especially by someone who's hostile or borderline hostile, I tie myself up in knots.

Can anyone help me out with a clear, memorable answer to the question, "But what difference does it (the Scottish self-ID process) make to women's single-sex spaces, as you don't need a birth certificate to enter them"?

I've read a lot about this, and particularly the MurrayBlackburnMackenzie blogs which explain it all in detail. But in conversation, when I get asked that question, I struggle to marshall my thoughts and explain it clearly. To be fair, I've heard people being interviewed on the same question on TV in the last few days who've also struggled, or not answered it at all. Any ideas?

The biggest issue is that a recent court case in Scotland deemed that 'legal sex' is the same as biological sex.

That would mean that for ALL intents and purposes a transwomen/ trans man is a woman/man.

So:
Sport
Prison
Equal pay/ gender pay gap legislation
Maternity legislation
Mental health facilities
Domestic abuse service
Rape crisis service
.......

Actually not ALL - titles won't get passed to trans men - quelle surprise!

Until there's clarification on legal single sex exemptions any changes to the GRA will be pushed back hard.

Tough shit.

Has everyone here seen this petition started by Sex Matters to update the Equality Act to make clear that the characteristic ‘sex’ means biological sex, not sex as modified by a GRC?

It needs to reach 100,000 signatures to have a chance of generating a Parliamentary debate before the cut-off some time in April.

Though it has close to three quarters of that, nothing should be taken for granted.

26,000 signatures are still needed so if you have not yet signed but might like to, or know someone who might,
👇
www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668426-petition-update-the-equality-act-to-make-clear-the-characteristic-sex-is-biological-sex?page=1

I like the explanation that it’s like a landlord telling the tenant that they haven’t done anything to their front door, when what they’ve actually done is give out thousands of new keys to total strangers.

Thank you to all posters for the replies, there are lots of helpful ideas. I'll get working on them!

The biggest issue is that a recent court case in Scotland deemed that 'legal sex' is the same as biological sex.

No it didn't. If you read the decision in full Lady Haldane makes references to the usual cases where sex would mean sex.

The phrase "for all purposes" is the legal way of saying a certificate says you (migically) become the other sex, but even the nitwits that drafted this realised there would be times when this wouldn't be appropriate. That's why single sex services are allow as exemptions. ie the norm is you have changed sex, but when is it important to biological women you haven't.

And if her ruling had changed it (which she couldn't have because the EA is UK wide) why would Nicola Sturgeon and Shona Robison and many other trans allies be going round saying why are you making such a fuss because the EA SSE still exist.

Obviously had sane people drafted these laws the "for all purposes" would be that women are biological females, and the "exemptions would be that those with GRCs could be women to get married and get buried.

So dont want to repeat my earlier post but our problem isn't the Scottish GRR but the failure of authorities, not just in Scotland to fail to take up the SSE for obvious situations, such as women's prisons, but worse in Scotland where is some instances they have blatantly subverted the single sex exemptions to in includes TW.

So we really should be building on this acknowledgement by members of the SNP to find out why they have colluded in breaking the law, and why prisons and other institutions that are for women are not listed as being subject to SSE.

Is there anyway of pinning this information so that it doesn't come up on every thread.

We need to move forward from where we are now, not on something that hasn't happened.

Yes, and blurring boundaries is a central part of what Queer Theory teaches - and Queer Theory underpins Gender Identity Theory nonsense. Queer Theory tries to get rid of all societal norms and blurs or destroys boundaries to do so. At least, that’s my current understanding. Actual source materials are in such impenetrable academic language that they are really difficult to read, and to me it mostly appears to be utter bollocks.

The impact of a GRC isn't limited to single sex spaces. It also obscures identity.

For example if applying for a DBS check (or Scottish equivalent) the check does not automatically cover both current and previous name. The person applying needs to go through a separate channel to alert the checking authority to their previous identity. Which works for someone who is both organised and honest - although even then it imposes a higher admin burden on them.

Look at this.

I have just read this on a UK Gov. website
proving what Size Mia Sodha said on that Politics Live show with Robin Moira White - that a GRC changes the threshold for legally discriminating.

twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1612806209953992711/mediaviewer

^Transgender women without a Gender Recognition Certificate – i.e. who are not legally female – are initially sent to a male prison as a matter of course.

Update on changes to transgender prisoner policy framework - GOV.UK

www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-changes-to-transgender-prisoner-policy-framework

Not Size Mia Sodha. Sonia Sodha.

It will normalise men in women’s spaces and inhibit people from challenging men in women’s spaces, because people will think men could be legally entitled to be there.

I think, in addition to many other points made here, introducing such legislation simply sends a message to violent perverts like those mentioned in the WingsOverScotland article, that they have every right to invade women’s spaces.

Probably not much use to you, OP, as in most discussions that group cannot be mentioned as it leads to accusations of transphobia, but I’d say those are some of the men who are shouting most loudly in favour of self-ID and the reason why is blatantly obvious.

I would be inclined to question why self-ID and the legal right for males to enter women’s spaces is the prominent demand, rather than provision of safe spaces or separate groups for men who claim they are women. Transactivists despise the third spaces argument and shout it down very loudly when it’s raised, which I think is an indicator that we should raise it more often. There’s no logical reason for transactivists to reject provision of separate spaces (especially when so much funding has been wasted on lobbying for self-ID) so when they do so, vehemently, it’s quite revealing.

"But what difference does it (the Scottish self-ID process) make to women's single-sex spaces, as you don't need a birth certificate to enter them"?

No but you do have to be a woman. The Scottish self ID process means that any man can declare himself a woman and legally be entitled to use women's single sex spaces.

The Scottish self ID process means that any man can declare himself a woman and legally be entitled to use women's single sex spaces.

This is totally untrue. Single sex spaces are governed by the EA which says not even a GRC does NOT allow you access to single sex spaces.

I dont know why contributors to FWR keep saying this. The new GRR Bill does not over ride the EA.

Both Nicola Sturgeon and Shona Robison have confirmed this.

We need to deal with the reality.

All these men in women's places life prisons etc., are because so many institutions have been captured by Stonewall etc..

We need to be campaigning for more organisatin to utilise the EA SSE. We need to challenge the lazy male establishment that has allowed trans ideology to over take common sense.

The problem isn't the law but so many people, companies and so on have been persuaded that it is "correct" to not support single sex provision.

So please can it be the last time that anyone posts this.

The EA as it currently is specifically says a GRC does NOT allow a male into a women's single sex space.

Everything that we are reading about, and writing about men intruding into women's space are not because of any law, but because people have chosen NOT to support women.

So although some people are now starting to listen, the majority are still captured by Stonewall, Mermaids etc.. People are listening to everybody else and not to women. This is why our rights are being eroded.

We have a law that allows us single sex spaces, and yet these aren't used.

oops - got carried away and didn't proof read.

This is totally untrue. Single sex spaces are governed by the EA which says not even a GRC does NOT allow you access to single sex spaces.

This is totally untrue. Single sex spaces are governed by the EA which says not even a GRC allow men access to single sex spaces for women.

Wrong. The EA does not make it clear that it refers to biological sex only.

For heavens sake.

You can google this and find this example of how the EA SSE work.

" ... A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful. ... "

I cant imagine how anyone would think this isn't clear.

So one more time. A biological male with a GRC does NOT have the right to a women's single sex service.

The problem isn't the law. The problem is that too many people do not care about women. Added to which they dont want the expense of setting up specialised services. That's why so many council contracts go to generic services.

The politics of women's rights just doesnot have any traction in the minds of most decision makers.

Wouldn't it be nice if just for once we could actually build on something positive, eg the SSE and start demanding for services provide them.

That's what we should be doing, compiling a list of the places that should operate under the EA SSE.

Sure. Here's a list of all the places I've heard that apply the Single Sex Exemption:

Beira's Place.

ArabellaScott · Today 08:09
Sure. Here's a list of all the places I've heard that apply the Single Sex Exemption:

Beira's Place.

The Girls’ Day School Trust

Hooray! That's two places women and girls know they are being respected!

Brodie's Trust (and she's taken a lot of abuse for doing so).

Struggling to think of any more.

Two

To sign the petition to update the Equality Act to make clear that the characteristic
“sex” is biological sex, so more organisations realise they do indeed have the right on certain settings to exclude all those of the male biological sex, whatever their gender, and even if they have a GRC,
⬇️
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243

The petition to update the Equality Act to spell out that sex means sex has nearly 75,000 signatures and hasn't had a response from the Government, which is supposed to respond after 10,000 signatures. Meanwhile, the petition on not amending the Equality Act has had a response to its 12,697 signatures, with the Government saying it's not going to do the update.

"This Government believes in individual liberty. There are processes with appropriate checks to allow for those who wish to legally change their gender. Changes to the Equality Act are not necessary."

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/627984

We all know that Scotland has gone out of its way not to follow the actual guidelines of the EA SSE, but hundreds of women's groups do still apply it.

So the problem is why was Scotland so easily captured, and why is no one calling out Nicola Sturgeon and Shona Robison who are gleefully saying there is no problem with the GRR because SSE are still in place.

That is the question.

Why so many parts of society, and service providers and prisons for instance do not use this existing law.

The issue is far bigger than why Scottish society is happy to be misled by Stonewall etc.. That's for people in Scotland to try and resolve.

In the meantime there is nothing to stop active campaigns to make, for example, prisons and the NHS operate SSE.

If we believe that women have the right to same sex spaces surely we would want to actively enhance and embed this rather than acting like some professional greek chorus and endlessly repeating those who are abusing SSE.

By the way - Did anyone ever find our why the regulatory authorities in Scotland failed to censor Edinburgh RCC for misadvertising vacancies as being under the EA SSE? And does anyone remember the name of the campaign group started by women who resigned from women's groups in Scotland because they weren't applying the SSE correctly? How about supporting them and giving them publicity.