Have you raised concerns with Girlguiding? Join me!

[AJNorthWest]

I'm a Brownie leader and am currently having a dispute with Girlguiding.

Here is where I'm at with it:

• I emailed my concerns in a comprehensive, rather extensive email
• They responded in a way that did not address any of my concerns, and gave me a scenario, a deadline to respond to that scenario and a threat of "taking things further" if I did not respond in time
• I spoke to a lawyer, Peter Daly (he has given me permission to share his name) who has dealt with this before, and he wrote an excellent response letter to the Chief Exec. Within that letter he pointed out their discriminatory behaviour towards me and my gender critical beliefs (as protected thanks to Maya Forstater). He asked them to answer lots of questions in relation to their response and their lack of response to my original concerns
• She has responded (admitting that the level of volunteer support I received was perhaps "not sufficient", which is a bit of an understatement. One of the things she said in her response was the suggestion of a one-to-one meeting with the Chief Commissioner for my region and the head of the Safe Practice Team

I have not responded yet to the Chief Exec. I plan on suggesting a meeting with herself, with not just me but with a group of leaders and parents who share the same concerns and have been palmed off with the same response. I think it is important that Girlguiding listen to our voices. I suspect their approach is to pick us off one by one, but a group may have a bigger impact. For this reason, they may not agree to meeting a group, but that would say a lot in itself.

So, if you have raised concerns and have been palmed off, if you've been too afraid to raise concerns for fear of you or your daughter being kicked out, if you are a leader, ex-leader or parent of a girl in Girlguiding and you would be interested in attending a meeting with me - please send me a private message. If you are not keen on attending a meeting but you'd still like your voice to be heard, please message me - maybe we could take some written statements with us as well.

You need to talk to @KatieAlcock - she's on MN.

PS - I'm an ex Brownie Leader and District Commissioner. I was summoned to a disciplinary by Region a few years ago for posting on FB about this crap.

I chose to resign, as I couldn't promise I wouldn't do it again (ie tell the truth), rather than get sacked.

I'd be happy to attend a meeting with GGUK.

Ask them how many letters and emails they got about Monica Sulley and the safeguarding issues. I emailed then, I imagine quite a few people did. Ex brownie helper here, never a leader.

There are quite a few of us who have raised concerns- but GG have their fingers in their ears. It's an issue that can't be discussed even in Facebook Guide leader groups (not set up by GG) as any comment that steps away from the official line is swiftly deleted and the poster banned.

They ignore any comments or questions on Twitter too.

My daughters will not attend brownies due to these issues so I just wanted to say thank you for raising this.
It makes me sad they can’t go and enjoy what I did.

I moved my daughter to scouts in the hope that a mixed sex set up would have better guidelines in place.

Hi! Thanks - I am in contact with her, she's been really helpful.

I hear you! We know from Katie Alcock's case that they would rather kick women out who raise concerns than actually listen to them. I'm hoping approaching as a group will have a bigger impact, but also if they refuse to do so it will highlight their complete lack of willingness to listen.

They don't. They can handle mixed sex spaces for boys and girls/men and women, but have the same approach as GG when a man or boy claims to be a trans girl/woman.

Go for it! It's obvious from your other post that you'd have a lot of support.

I haven't raised concerns because I'm scared, but I am also scared about what my daughters might experience given their stance on this. As mine are rainbows and brownies, it's pretty limited harm at the moment (and I know the leaders, and kids in their groups - it's not an issue in practice for us). But I am worried about the future. Planning to volunteer as a helper in future and wonder how well my GC views would be received - I suspect my local leadership shares them, but am not sure.

Below is my reply from GG re safeguarding.....it makes no sense whatsoever! Good luck & pls keep us posted.

Thank you for contacting us following the media interest in the past few days about Girlguiding’s policy on equality and diversity. We have released a statement on the recent coverage which you can see here.

To clarify, Girlguiding has always been a girl only organisation and is committed to ensuring that girls and young women are given a space to challenge gender stereotypes. When our inclusion guidelines were updated in January 2017, we informed all leaders and commissioners via our e-newsletter; Discover, Grow. The recent articles are not due to any changes we as an organisation have made, or information given to media.

Our guidelines comply with the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 which makes clear that organisations providing single-sex services such as Girlguiding should treat people according to their acquired gender. As such, and in line with our values of inclusion, we welcome all girls and young women, both cisgender and transgender.

Please be advised that all members of Girlguiding are able to attend trips and residentials and it is good practice not to disclose if a young member is trans without their consent and in some cases would be unlawful. Not disclosing personal details about any of our members is to safeguard the girl involved who may be very vulnerable, and open to discrimination and abuse. If you are uncomfortable about your daughter potentially sharing accommodation, for whatever reason, you can discuss alternative accommodation and facilities with their leader. However, in accordance with our policy, they will not be able to tell you if there is a trans child in the unit without the permission of that child and their parents.

A trans woman is not directly equivalent to a cis man. Both cis and trans girls and young women are entitled to use girls’/women’s accommodation or changing facilities. And where possible more private, individual or mixed gender facilities are made available or offered to all young members – including trans members – should they wish or request them.

All of our adult volunteers, of any gender, must undergo a criminal records check and our volunteers attend safeguarding training for their role and responsibilities.

All activities we undertake including residentials are planned and managed through effective and compliant checking processes and are monitored throughout, by local management (commissioners). All accommodation and showering arrangements are clearly planned and supported to ensure we offer accessibility for all.

We would expect female to male trans members to move on from guiding at a time that is right for them. We would support leaders to ensure that their move out of guiding is done sensitively and at a pace that suits the young person. Guiding will be an important support network for them and we would want to ensure that the process of leaving is done through conversation with the young person and planning what is most appropriate for them.

I hope that this answers you query and thank you again for contacting us.

Best wishes,

The Information Team
Girlguiding

My question is below...

Message:
Hi, I have a daughter interested in joining but I need clarification on your policy of allowing boys who identify as girls, to go on residential trips, without informing the parents of children affected.
Also are men who identify as women, but have not had gender reassignment surgery, allowed to share sleeping quarters with the girls on residential trips? Please confirm your safeguarding policies as things have clearly changed substantially since I was in the girl guides? Lastly if a girl wishes to identify as a boy, is it true she has to leave the girl guides? Thank you

Would you be happy to write your concerns down anonymously? I'm thinking it's important to let Girlguiding know that many of the parents and leaders are afraid to speak out, which is a huge issue on their part.

Good luck to you, OP. I've had concerns about this for some time - really since my dd was a Rainbow, and she's now a Guide. I've felt quite conflicted about letting her stay but she gets a lot from.it and her unit leaders appear to be take-no-nonsense types of women which gives me some comfort.

However, there is no way I will ever let her go on a residential trip of any description. Which is shit but there you have it.

You asked a really reasonable and important question and you were met with a vague response that dismisses your concerns.

Their response of "A trans woman is not directly equivalent to a cis man. Both cis and trans girls and young women are entitled to use girls’/women’s accommodation or changing facilities. And where possible more private, individual or mixed gender facilities are made available or offered to all young members – including trans members – should they wish or request them." is very concerning!

Trans girls and women are not "entitled" to use single-sex spaces. And they are putting the responsibility on any girl who feels uncomfortable to speak up so they can use separate facilities. Putting the responsibility of safeguarding onto the girls themselves is a disgrace.

Would you be willing to chat more about this and possibly attend a meeting with me if Girlguiding agrees?

Could we email our letters that we sent to GG to Peter Daly as he is a known entity? I am not really prepared to send someone I don't know a copy of my email that I sent re: Sully.

I'm not sure what help I can be but I emailed both HQ and my local commissioner or whatever they're called. This was when the Sully thing was kicking off but my questions/points were general too. I got useless replies. From memory they became more and more short, bordering on rude with me too, although I was completely polite.

That response makes no sense. How can the organisation say it follows EQA guidance in providing single sex provision and then make it unisex? It’s either based on sex or gender - so I guess because they say girls they mean gender (including those who self identify). I don’t think half the people who write these responses have a clue.

Girl guiding U.K. clearly has a warped understanding of the Equalities Act 2010. The protected characteristics include sex and gender reassignment, not gender ID. Interesting how they have tried to squeeze in self ID, no regard for girls at all

This seems to be really hardline stuff, blazing a trail well beyond the law. They have previous regarding safeguarding complaints about Sulley and are not to be trusted. They have switched the focus of safeguarding to males who identify as girls and women while demonising girls ('to safeguard the girl involved who may be very vulnerable, and open to discrimination and abuse'). Surely GG are asking for some form of legal action?

Just knowing the sheer number of women (both leaders and parents) who have raised concerns and have been ignored is helpful. If you feel comfortable possibly attending a meeting with Girlguiding staff (if they accept) please message me. If you don't feel comfortable attending but would like to write something about your concerns and the response you've had, please do! You can do this anonymously and send it to me.

I've name changed for this because it will be outing for anyone who works in my division.

As per a couple of posts above the statement is 'I know the leaders' or 'I know the group'. It is very very rare that you will find that within a group you would not be aware if there was a trans girl or leader mostly because those who have been trans leaders have welcomed a discussion with new parents (we have had a trans leader in the unit I worked at)

The statement from GG is correct all members go through DBS checks and lots and lots of safeguarding training we all know what to do and what to look out for.

I think this thought is a fear mongering. Now in terms of Sully I find it a bit weird... any leader could have posted this type of content it is not exclusive to trans leaders e.g if your brown owl who is a CIS woman posted on her Facebook something similar you would probably, quite rightly, be equally appalled!

Girlguiding is inclusive and welcoming, as guiding leaders yourselves you are not stupid if something isn't right in the unit you won't just let it pass you by!

For parents who are worried we spend an awful lot of time with risk assessments and making sure your children and our leaders are safe. Most trans girls are friends with their peers in guiding and this would be discussed among themselves it would very very rarely if ever be such a secret, however it is protected. Same way that you wouldn't expect me to share with all the other parents if you child had a relative or even a parent in some cases who has been to prison in order to let the other parents know just in case!

Anyway. Rant over, off to cut out 5 million petals for our next session

Its over 4 years since I wrote to confirm my child would be safe using terms such as male bodied, male genitalia and got fobbed off. I'm an ex leader myself and know very well the current leaders so have faith in them, I know there are no trans girls at our local meeting and would soon know if there was one. She does residentials which are solely her unit but I do not send her on ones which involve other units.

The statement from GG is correct all members go through DBS checks and lots and lots of safeguarding training we all know what to do and what to look out for

I don't think DBS checks cover any previous names the person being checked has used, unless they declare them. So a trans woman wouldn't be checked under the male name.

Yy that would be the best way to approach it. Messaging a random poster would be foolish in the circumstances.
GGUK Head office have been made aware of the issues for over five years. They don't care. I assume it's linked to funding requirements.
In the email response above, it's clear they also don't actually understand the Equality Act.