Times article about lesbians by Sally Wainwright

[WandaWomblesaurus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/82515090-980f-11ed-91ab-4070465550ba?shareToken=6dcf538a69e87a8f07c3c2730148cdd7

please summarise what it says, if you are making a thread about it. Just a link that people dont want to click on isn't very informative

Thanks for the share token Wanda. Very helpful.

That's a really good, clear and heartfelt article. I was looking for something to send to one of my kids to explain the fears that lesbians have about this legislation, and this will be great. Thank you.

Since when are sharetoken links to the Times problematic?

Excellent article but please note she is not the TV writer but a different woman (just in case people are confusing her).

Thank you Wanda.

A sobering read.

No idea! Always happy to click a Times sharelink here.

Interesting and at the same time depressing article. There is definitely a war on women and our rights, and many women are just fine with that!

I run a women's group. I haven't accepted any members since before covid as I just know a biological male will try and join and cause a fuss when declined. We're a single sex group and will remain so.

Since they started publishing articles in support of the cunty lesbians.
As opposed to the ones with the "bulging silver shorts".

It's a Times article by a lesbian about how self ID will send lesbians back into the closet.

It's a share token. Usually much apprecaited.

Thankyou for the share token. I prefer that to reading a summary in OP, which can often be difficult to follow.

It's a sobering read, but read on the same morning as the Canadian article, is exactly what is happening.

These males want our spaces and they are going to take them. The law, in the most part is on their side.

It's always upset me that my kids weren't born in Scotland. No more. Now I am so relieved.

Thank you for sharing.

Ms Wainwright is right, lesbian community and culture is facing destruction with the passing of the GRR.

i wouldn't read much into one woman's opinion. or mumsnet opinions.
several lesbian friends of mine have spoken out against that article on their fb pages. in fact i can't think of one lesbian friend/acquaintance who's not entirely welcoming of trans folk.

That’s s terrific piece. Brava Sally Wainwright, and well done The Times for publishing it.

And how hideously tragic that such a piece should have to be written in 2023.

I think the question you need to ask yourself - should Sally be able to organise a female only group ? If the law changes in Scotland (or you could argue even now) the answer is no.

You and your friends are happy with inclusive spaces and that's great.

But what about Sally and her friends who are self excluding? How should that be managed?

If a TW tries to access their safe space, how should they deal with it?

Great article, thanks. I am very slightly disappointed it wasn’t from the pen of one of my favourite scriptwriters, but it’s an important perspective. My lesbian daughter is both welcoming to transitioning people in general, yet still laments the inability of young lesbians at her university to organise events for lesbians without young men forcing their way in, so these are not exclusive positions.

Thanks very much for the sharetoken. No summary necessary as it’s obviously a safe link.

in fact i can't think of one lesbian friend/acquaintance who's not entirely welcoming of trans folk.

I'm sure they'd feel completely safe telling you if they had reservations. 🙄

Anyway no one is trying to make a law stopping you from organising mixed-sex spaces labelled "lesbian." No one should be trying to stop women-only spaces from existing either.

Thank you for the share token

I find women-only gatherings a world apart from mixed ones, gaining support as well as friendship.

me too. I was at a women only gathering last night. We enthusiastically took part in an activity that involved looking a little undignified at times. The energy and enthusiasm would have been completely different with men present.

Great article!

Probably depends on what circles you move in? I'd say my lesbian friends are half completely silent on the issue, and half in agreement with this article. And what does being 'welcoming of trans folk' mean? Welcoming where and how?

One can be totally supportive of trans people and still work to maintain female-only spaces. One can be 'welcoming' of transmen into women-only spaces. One can be 'welcoming' of transwomen into one's definition of 'lesbian'. These positions are all much more nuanced than your post suggests.

Probably depends on what circles you move in?

I’m not sure that Waspnbees acknowledges the right of people to exist and be heard if their opinions differ from those of Waspnbees and Waspanbee’s friends.

Seems a tad narcissistic to me, but there you go.

Please do correct me if I’m wrong Waspnbees and you do in fact recognise that you and your friends don’t represent the entirety of the population, and that there is a plurality of views in this subject among the lesbian community as elsewhere.

*Waspsnbees, obvs.

Should female people ever have the right to say no to male people at all?

Such a thorny question.

As woman married to a woman, I find it a bit dispiriting that almost all public discourse (in the press, on mumsnet etc) about LGB women, our concerns, our rights, our lives now seems to be dominated by the trans issue or is quickly hijacked by the issue. I’m not saying this issue isn’t important, but it seems there is no space for anything else any more.

Is nobody interested in the cost / barriers of getting pregnant as an LGB women? or the difficulty of finding kids books that have female female couples in them? or the way lesbians looking longingly at each other are now shoehorned into every period drama to either up its sex factor or awards potential? or the casual homophobia many of us still face? or the biphobia women face from both the straight and not straight community? or the brilliant abundance of adult books showing the non-straight experience? Or the awful prejudices LGB women still face around the world? or how much better it is to be at school or young and LGB now than it was when all the 30-40 year old LGB women I know were at school when “gay” “dy*ke” was used as an acceptable way of saying something was rubbish? Or the way some men stop talking to you once they realise you’re not a sexual prospect, or start encouraging you to kiss / let them watch? Or the way young people now see lesbian as a porn category? Or the way most LGB women still aren’t out at work and why that is? Or how much easier it’s become for politicians sports stars actors etc to be out now and how great this is?

Seemingly not, all journalists / Mumsnet commentators seem to be interested in now whenever lesbians / bi women come up is what our stance / experience of the trans issue is. Which from my perspective is just as erasing as the erasure many on here are saying trans inclusion will mean for LGB women.