Can I have some advice about my 10 year old daughter please?

[HelenHywater]

My dd is 10. She has started puberty relatively early. I posted previously that she has been saying for a while that she thinks she is gay. Which is fine. Last year when she was in y5, in their infinite wisdom, her school decided to have some "diversity champions" come and speak to the class. All of these people were male. Most were gay. Some were presenting as female. none were female

They told her and her class all about gender. My dd was very confused. And talked me to me about how she could be a lesbian and would have to change her gender. I talked to her as best I could about how she can just be herself, and she doesn't need to change gender, and she can love anyone. (I was exceptionally angry with the school - my little girl still believed in Father Christmas and was asking me about changing her fucking gender).

Anyway, roll on a year, she is having counselling through the school and I had a meeting with her counsellor this week. She told me that they had a discussion about her brothers and sisters and the counsellor drew a picture, talking about whether they were boys or girls. My dd decided (according to the counsellor) that she was uncomfortable describing herself as a girl or a boy so the counsellor allowed her or encouraged her (who knows) to put herself as a yellow triangle. No discussion about being female or male or anything.

She is now year 6.

I am so worried she is going to go down a nonbinary route in secondary school. (which is probably fine as many of them do and come out of it). But I'd really appreciate advice on how to talk to my dd (I am VERY gender critical myself) and also the school. I'm so cross that they aren't discussing sex at all. I'm so cross that my dd is talking about gender at the age of 10.

Sorry this is really long. I've venting a bit....

You explain how gender is a social construct and sex cannot be changed. She's year six. She is quite capable of understanding your view.

My god that’s depressing reading. Genuinely sad to read.
Does this happen in all schools?

I would advise she concentrate on her school work, making friendships, and not worry about any of this until older.

So a counsellor has let your DD present herself as a yellow triangle ?
I’d pull her out of counselling too- likely to get roasted for this comment but I don’t care. All this gender stuff is absolutely driving me insane. There are other things to worry about- Maths, English, Science. Things schools need to stick to!

Can you find out where these Diversity champions came from? They shouldn’t be teaching that a girl has to change her gender to be a lesbian!

Ten year olds shouldn't be thinking about which sex they are attracted to! Why does she think she's gay?

They did apologise for the whole diversity champion thing and acknowledged they should probably have had some actual females in there.

Their argument was that they wanted to teach the children that families come in all shapes and sizes. The children already knew that of course given that there is a mix of families in the school and we live in a very diverse area.

What an odd comment.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I imagine it's very worrying.

Have you spoken to the school? There are lots of resources online you can use to challenge them if you think they're teaching inappropriate and damaging things about sex and gender: teachersguidetosexandgender.org/what-does-the-dfe-say/

See also Transgender Trend and Sex Matters.

With your daughter, I would be reinforcing that her sex is female and is immutable, but has no bearing on what she likes or who she is. Sex is physical. Everything else is just personality. And of course, let her know that being same sex attracted is absolutely fine.

Best wishes to you.

She's of an age when children begin to develop their own sense of self, separate to their parents and family. She may need something to help her do this and a non binary identity could be the "thing" that helps her make sense of herself and her place in the world. Any sensible grown up can see that non binary is a nonsense but at the same time it may be important that you respect her. While encouraging her to see that women and girls can present any way they like. It sounds like that's exactly what you'll do.

Her siblings may be different/merciless ? If they're anything like mine. !

It seems strange that the counsellor called you in to talk about something that should be kept between her and your daughter. Unless your daughter asked for that to happen? I'd worry the counsellor thinks she's a "trans child" and are being driven by their own thoughts and feelings rather than your daughter's.

'We're all non-binary, but we're all also either male or female'.

I would be furious at the school.

I agree with gender is a social construct. Tell her that she is a biological female but how she decides to look or be to the world is up to her to decide. There is no need to label anything more and she can be or look/dress in whatever way makes her comfortable

I'd remind the school about the latest guidance for schools, and about the Cass finding that affirmation is not a neutral act.

And be giving serious thought to whether further sessions with that counsellor are likely to be helpful or harmful.

Who did they apologise to for the diversity training - parents or children? And did they then set up anything more balanced to counteract it?

I've told my mini-lesbian the truth. Sex cannot be changed. You can dress any way you like and call yourself whatever you like. Being a girl can be annoying, sure, but lots of things are annoying. Doesn't stop them being true. You want to change something? Change the world. Join the legion of women who for generations have fought to make things just a little better every time. Segue into Malala Yousef, Pankhurst, jobsagoodun. Mine is older, though, so I threw in some more difficult women to the list. In your shoes I'd be so so angry at the school.

Wtf, where the hell are these schools that put so much shit in children’s heads. Yr6 is hard enough with SATs and preparing for high school, children don’t need and extra pressure put on them.

The way I explain to my 10 & 8 yos (yr6 & yr4), and I know I will probably get shot down for it, is…

Lesbian = girls who like girls
Gay (for boys) = boys who like boys
Bi = liking both boys and girls
Transgender = something completely different to being gay or lesbian. It’s someone who feels like they were born in the wrong body, .e.g boy who feels he should be a girl and the other way round. There are operations that can change certain parts of the body and allow people to feel like they have changed sex but ultimately you can change everything as men and womens bodies are completely different.

Everything else is just rubbish, my personal opinion. My DDs know there are other labels out there but I’ve told them these are the basics, there is no need to think or worry about them until they are a lot older, and even then I personally think they are rubbish and just a fashion thing at the moment.

As with religion, I’ve told my DDs that people are entitled to feel how they want, but not entitled to stuff their opinions or way of life down other peoples throats or put pressure on anyone else to change the way they think or feel. If they are ever unsure how they feel, I’ve asked them to talk to me first.

A few thoughts.

The school have to correct their mistake, sorry doesn't cut it, does it? Do they want to be responsible for setting your dd off on a path of self destruction? Top surgery in the future? Breast binders? Hating her natural healthy body?

You need to convince school to invite proper lesbians to the school you know the good old fashioned female type, ideally women that are successful in their profession and happy in their own skin. Insist that this happens so that ether are alternative role models.

I’d pull her out of counselling too- likely to get roasted for this comment but I don’t care.

Absolutely. I doubt that the 'counselling' is done by a proper accredited clinical psychotherapist. Schools have mental health support workers, and it would be very interesting to see unbiased, factual data on the efficacy of this service.

In my view, as these mental health support workers aren't actually trained counsellors they can do more harm than good.

My concern is that children are incredibly susceptible and weekly 1-2-1 sessions with external staff that have not undergone extensive training delivering interventions that are not evidence based is highly questionable.

I'd look for an accredited clinical psychologist if you feel your dc has mental health problems but that doesn't really seem to be the case?

Your dd thinks she likes girls, that's great, you can reassure her that that's fine but that at her age, it's best to focus on hobbies, friendships, family, pets and school. Relationships and crushes can wait until she is a bit older. Get involved, show her love and accept her little personality as she is. Non binary? What rubbish.

Change schools. Your daughter is not anyone's experiment.

@HelenHywater Have the school tried to balance their awful “diversity champion” visits with some actual women? If not I would be asking them to do this ASAP. They can’t just apologise and forgrt the whole thing, they need to being in some lesbians, and real ones at that!

I also agree about pulling her out of counselling, imo she’s being groomed.

Thanks everyone. It's really helpful and so many comments.

Just a couple of responses - the counsellor didn't call me in to tell me this, it was just a general progress report and she reported it just in passing.

And no, no balancing visits from actual women have been arranged by the school. I am fighting a losing battle at school. They are captured and so are most of the parents - I'm glad its my last child there and would seriously reconsider sending any other children there if I had any younger ones.

My dd is my youngest child - I have older dds who have now appear to be coming through the other side, but for many years have accused me of being a Terf. I am concerned about my dd because she is questioning her sexuality, she is already anxious (lockdown etc) and she is possibly neuro-diverse.

The secondary schools here are even worse - she will likely go to a girls school where they allow them to become boys even without telling the parents or a mixed sex school where they let boys (who are identifying as girls) into the girls toilets. It's horrendous.

I don't necessarily agree with the counsellor's approach but this is a very tricky situation. Yes investigate qualified counselling but maybe don't take away her support in school - yet. Apart from anything else that could create a rift with the school. You might back off from challenging the school's approach to gender and just focus on your DD and (if possible) on everything else in her life except gender.

Neurodiversity assessments and support for social "quirks" or anxieties sounds like a good idea. Neurodiverse kids often have odd or oversimpliifed views about what makes someone a boy or a girl - my DS had some odd ideas about what was and wasn't alive! - so maybe you could use what the counsellor told you as a way in with the school.

Have you listened to any of the Stella O'Malley and Sasha Ayad podcasts "Gender - A Wider Lens"? There's a lot of epsiodes now but if you haven't then maybe start with the first ones and then pick and choose! They are both therapists who work with teens who have gender issues and their families, especially girls. Genspect are anther good resource.

And be prepared for the long haul, there may not be a quick fix. If she goes to a school that allows girls to become boys without telling the parents (etc) then you may want to be cautious so you can keep in touch with what's going on.

The Bayswater support group might be able to help with both finding alternative counselling and with resources for challenging schools (including social transition without informing parents, which I believe is against the latest DfE guidance).