The trans teen trend: a case of social contagion?

[WarriorN]

Maya Forstater has just tweeted this recent panel discussion between James Esse, Helen Joyce, Jennie Bristow and Katy Jon Went.

I've not watched it all yet but it looks really good. I appreciate Went being on the panel; a trans person who is happy to debate.

Blurb:

An increasing number of children, particularly teenage girls, are coming out as ‘trans’. There are those who argue that this increase in young people seeking to change their identity is simply demonstrative of the fact that we are living in a more open and tolerant society. They argue that stigma within the medical profession and in wider society had previously prevented trans individuals from accessing the help they needed, and that medical interventions simply enable children to embrace who they feel they really are on the inside.

On the other hand, increasing numbers of professionals hold deep concerns over this sharp rise. They point to the fact that large numbers of these patients are being affirmed down a medical pathway, often culminating in irreversible medication or surgery. They also argue that gender dysphoria is a mental-health condition, prone to social contagion (much like OCD or anorexia), and should be treated as such. Rather than pills or surgery, they argue that therapy, investigation and psychological help is the best course of action for the vast majority of patients. Indeed, the Cass Review, headed up by Dr Hilary Cass, argued that a ‘lack of consensus and open discussion about the nature of gender dysphoria’ had meant that there was a similar failing in an ‘appropriate clinical response’. As a result of the review, the NHS was forced to close the Tavistock Centre – the largest provider of transgender services in England – which had become a focus for criticism.

Whatever your views on the issue of transitioning, is there a bigger question as to why so many young people suddenly seem to want to change their identity? Has an increase in discussion about gender encouraged a faddish approach to trans ideology, or merely liberated children who previously felt trapped? Should we celebrate the fact that our children can be whoever they want to be? And perhaps more importantly, does enabling this freedom have to entail such drastic change?

Speakers
Jennie Bristow - senior lecturer in sociology, Canterbury Christ Church University; author, The Corona Generation: coming of age in a crisis and Growing up in Lockdown
James Esses - barrister; social commentator; co-founder, Thoughtful Therapists
Katy Jon Went - diversity and inclusion facilitator and educator, Human Library, Pick My Brain, GenderAgenda, Fifty Shades of Gender
Helen Joyce - director of advocacy, Sex Matters; author, TRANS: when ideology meets reality

Chair
Claire Fox - director, Academy of Ideas; independent peer, House of Lords; author, I STILL Find That Offensive!

It's a discussion and Q&A from academyofideas.org.uk/ where Fox is director.

Thank you for sharing WarriorN. This is so important.
The continued lack of concern about ROGD & social contagion with trans groups being allowed to use these children as human shields is shameful.

The whole thing is a mess. The ethics are both horrific and absent.

Quoting a sazzasez and my own post from another thread:

Sazzasez
There will be a lot if people ageing with permanent damage. Much of which will worsen as scar tissue ages.

In some countries this will happen - it already is:

https://mobile.twitter.com/duchess_elle/status/16125741029671854099*

None of this is considered or talked about. In 20/30/40 yrs some of these people will be very elderly and at much higher risk of utis due to the surgeries. Osteoporosis due to the hormones. Skin infections due to aging scarring. Heart diseases, strokes. Fertility issues are now dismissed with "oh use a surrogate!"

I'm really not surprised this person doesn't want to get old in their body.

It raises all sorts of extra ethical concerns rarely discussed. More likely to desire assisted suicide.

Not only are they sterilising kids, they're potentially increasing the likelihood of assisted suicide due to both extra layers of physical complications when elderly (or younger) as well as simply being in the mindset that you can medically manipulate everything about your body, including death.

And these kids are being believed and celebrated?

From this thread:

Helen Joyce on Triggernometry www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4715765-helen-joyce-on-triggernometry

There are those who argue that this increase in young people seeking to change their identity is simply demonstrative of the fact that we are living in a more open and tolerant society. They argue that stigma within the medical profession and in wider society had previously prevented trans individuals from accessing the help they needed, and that medical interventions simply enable children to embrace who they feel they really are on the inside.

As male homosexuality was legalised, and as gay and lesbian relationships became increasingly accepted, people of all ages came out. Not just children and teens but people who had hidden their sexuality for decades. Many of the first people to take advantage of equal marriage were well past retirement age.

That's not the pattern we're seeing now - where is the flood of middle aged and older women coming out as men now that society is more accepting?

This often reminds of the facebook/social media posts of young teens/women taking selfies with a duck face pose.

It was a trend that thankfully (almost) died out.

Can you imagine if it were to occur today en masse - and we had to 'affirm' their duck face with surgery?

I think I missed the link? Or it's not there now.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=eUFaIjVzq2g

The best bit of this discussion is the very end where a young trans man called Michael stands up and berates the panel for dehumanising trans men, citing suicide statistics.

The way the panel responded was amazing. Especially Helen Joyce who berated Michael right back for talking about suicide in a dangerous way. I bet Michael had never been spoken to like that before - if you haven't time for the whole thing fast forward to the end.

And yes, I admired Katy very much, in fact I admire any trans person willing to speak up about this ideology that is obviously ultimately no good for the trans community!

Definitely.

I heard from a mutual friend the heartbreaker (imo) story of a woman I used to know whose younger child has also decided to change sex. Her eldest child has gone down this path (operations done at this point) and now her younger child is also claiming this is what is right for them!?!?!? Common sense tells me that statistically this cannot be right, it must be a tribal thing. See my tribe? Come in, come in.

When I was in school, self harming became a huge trend. I wonder if this is the new trendy mental health condition.

And yes, I admired Katy very much, in fact I admire any trans person willing to speak up about this ideology that is obviously ultimately no good for the trans community!

I've just got to Katy's part and yes, a very important perspective to be included in the debate. Katy is doing what so many other trans identified people should be doing (also says has an intersex condition, not sure which).

Clearly went through a huge and lengthy psych perspective; doesn't refer to themselves as now being a woman but does say is clear of gender dysphoria.

This is an important distinction. Gender dysphoria doesn't have to result in transition either; there are other ways to "treat" it.

The issue is that it's been lumped in with being gay. And so the confused links to gay conversion etc.

This is right. The difference is that with self harm, eating disorders, suicide ideation etc adults work hard to prevent social contagion. Sadly children believing they can change their sex are immediately affirmed and often referred to some of the dodgy adult groups hovering, waiting to enable their transition. The level of professional stupidity is off the scale with this.

Do watch it as Helen Joyce describes in detail the history of anorexia. Very interesting and another social contagion. James details key aspects of gender ideology that help fuel the contagion.

The level of professional stupidity is off the scale with this.

This x10000%

Jennie Bristow makes excellent points about Pronouns. Children demanding/ adopting them demonstrates "a fragile sense of self that relies on being affirmed and acknowledged by the wider world."

I'm not sure trend is the right language for capturing the complexities needed for helpful debate. It seems like it instantly diminishes the legitimacy of those suffering which will just build walls and prevent genuine dialogue. The social contagion aspect is interesting...anyone know if anyone has actually researched this? If there is a social contagion aspect, two different ways of making sense of that would be that a psychological pathology passes between individuals, or that individuals who are feeling certain sorts of misfit feel more able to talk about and overcome their issues when others around them are seen to be doing the same. With either explanation, one thing that concerns me is that the problem and solution is thought to be within these suffering young people (psychiatric treatment or surgery). It seems more likely that the problem and solution lie in social and cultural systems one way or another, but those are hard to change. Also, I think it is important to emphasise that if the source of suffering is cultural (eg if the problem is gender ideals make people think they need a certain body to behave a certain way) this doesn't make the experience any less real, and it doesn't automatically mean that those people don't deserve whatever sort of help will alleviate their suffering. We can't expect them to wait for a society that is programmed differently, or to somehow be able to transcend social ideals. None of us have/ever will. Thanks for the thread I'd be interested to see that debate.

I think many young people are declaring themselves trans solely as a result of social media. As someone else said, when being gay became socially acceptable, many older people came out. The trans ideology of the present is concerning mainly young people who feel the need to fit in with their peers.

@mumarooni those points around trend not being an accurate description are raised by a couple of the speakers and Claire Fox.
Jennie particularly looks at it with a wider lens

Jennie Bristow 57 mins in:

“I worry about aspects of the mental health and well-being agenda in the sense that there’s a promotion to young people of the idea that you can be happy; but the reason you are unhappy is because of you.”

@mumarooni
Working in schools on the pastoral side, you'd become aware of a cluster of children surrounding a girl self harming / eating disorder etc suddenly displaying similar symptoms. We'd then discuss with our professional colleagues (ed psychs etc) strategies for "protecting" peers while supporting a vulnerable child. We'd ensure that the vulnerable child had professional support (in or out of school) and actively discourage them from seeking out peers/ other adults for "general chat about the issue" in school.

It sounds counter intuitive but, just as with trans issues, children relish the special attention they get for sharing and then the issue becomes the focus rather than all the other things that are important to their development. It puts boundaries in place, stops over keen & unqualified adults from dabbling and indulging in professional dangerousness. Some kids (and staff) make a beeline for the vulnerable and kids learn that they get special attention for this.
The current situation in some schools over trans issues is dangerous with unqualified "useful idiots" over invested in socially transitioning thousands of children with no understanding of the long term psychological and health consequences for them

The bit with Michael was shocking and sad to me - to watch her say "I'm a man" to James with such sincerity and pain was really uncomfortable. I think she's been massively let down by the people that have not only affirmed a delusion but made out that the rest of society will accommodate it. "Man" and "Woman" are not social constructs and the weakness of our institutions and politicians to speak the truth has enabled this and I feel that Michael and people like her are victims.

After watching to the end I believe that it should be mandatory watching for all teachers.

@MrsOvertonsWindow Thanks for this, I know about social contagion of self harm (and suicide) but I wasn't sure whether there was any research on the social contagion of gender dysphoria/gender non-conformity, i.e. to find out how likely it is to 'spread' between known friends, what the mechanisms of that are, and most importantly what the outcomes of that are. E.g. it could be the case that in schools where trans ideas are more popular, self-harming diminishes. Who knows? It could be the exact opposite. I'm just emphasising we need more research and should be careful about presuming trans ideas will play out the same way self-harm behaviours do.

"I'm just emphasising we need more research and should be careful about presuming trans ideas will play out the same way self-harm behaviours do".

I agree @mumarooni that we must be careful about assumptions and that research is vital. However pastoral staff in schools have a lot of experience in understanding boundaries and knowing where they have the expertise to help and what needs referring on to specialists (safeguarding, mental health issues etc) . But trans training de skills teachers by insisting that schools can keep confidences, remove parental rights, immediately affirm & socially transition children, promote the fantasy that you can change sex etc.

That's why I contrast this with how schools deal with other mental health conditions - the normal professional boundaries that keep children and adults safe when dealing with them have been blown apart and thus some children are no longer safe.