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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Telegraph interview with Mumsnet founder

106 replies

TheNoWord · 07/01/2023 07:30

Some interesting comments about this board:

”“I wish it wasn’t an issue that created so much anger. For me, if you want to choose to be a woman, with all the disadvantages that entails, I’m going to embrace you. But biologically is a trans woman the same as a woman? I would say no.”

“There’s this tension because both sides are rightly worried about safety. Trans women feel they are not safe in male spaces because of male violence [if they’re forced, for example, to use male lavatories] and cis [heterosexual] women are nervous about that because they think this might be exploited by violent males. It gets my goat that women – and trans women are included – live with this spectre of male violence and no one politically or otherwise seems to saying: ‘this is the real issue.’”

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/mumsnet-founder-users-have-extraordinarily-strong-vitriolic/

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 07/01/2023 09:25

I want to also thank Justine.

Thank you, Justine, for the space you protect.

LaughingPriest · 07/01/2023 09:27

I agree that regardless of anything else, Justine is doing the most important thing she can do - keeping this forum going.

NotBadConsidering · 07/01/2023 09:28

The laziness, cowardice and resulting sheer bloody ignorance of journalists infuriates me. Many of the women here write better in posts they knock out in a few minutes in a coffee break and it's way better researched and evidenced

See also:

Most posters here understand the medical implications and what actually happens to children with puberty blockers and wrong sex hormones far more than most doctors and can reference journal articles with good evidence and research to back it up.

Reuters write an article on detransitioners, or Amelia Gentleman writes an article on the worry of girls transitioning similar to posts that anyone here has probably casually knocked out over the last few years and they get a hearty clap on the back 🙄.

SerotinaPickeler · 07/01/2023 09:28

LaChatte · 07/01/2023 08:58

I disagree about it being a minority who feel very very strongly about it. It's a minority who are active in the discussion. Lots of us follow the board without participating, doesn't mean we don't feel strongly about it too.

Yes agree with this. I'm currently more of a 'strong follower' rather than a 'strong activist' because..life/mouse/DC awkwardness etc, but I will step up when it calls for more than ££s, petitions or letter writing. 🙀

nilsmousehammer · 07/01/2023 09:30

Theeyeballsinthesky · 07/01/2023 09:24

This - I applaud Justine for letting FWR & the discussions here stand in the face of (what I imagine given the circles she moves in) unbelievable pressure both in work and in private

however she doesn’t seem proud of anything FWR has achieved because I also believe that without FWR & MN, we’d be where Scotland are

and yet was it the day after Maya’s victory that it was announced feminism boards would split into two?

How can she?

Justine is doing exactly what we bloody well need the government and all local authorities and civil institutions to do.

She is making it impossible to know what her own personal views are on the subject as not relevant while maintaining spaces for both beliefs and not allowing one to silence the other outside of the law. She makes it clear that it does not matter what she thinks personally, and does not involve her own feelings.

That used to be called things like 'integrity' and 'professionalism' back in the day, when those in positions of power and influence actually had some class. Before total emotional incontinence and infantile behaviour became the norm. I respect the hell out of her for it.

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2023 09:31

@Helleofabore Oh I've had my second sleep after a quick wander through here about 4ish I think. Might be time for another one soon.

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2023 09:32

nilsmousehammer · 07/01/2023 09:21

The laziness, cowardice and resulting sheer bloody ignorance of journalists infuriates me. Many of the women here write better in posts they knock out in a few minutes in a coffee break and it's way better researched and evidenced.

Why is there this 'squabble'?

Squabble?

Because - as an activist poster plainly and specifically laid out last night in a thread - this is about men requiring that all women suck up a sex based duty to be raped, excluded and disadvantaged, and see this as a fair price for the better psychological happiness and freedoms of some of the male sex. This is about requiring women to accept sex based disadvantage and discrimination and the horror of things such as rape and exclusion and being left in life threatening relationships so that a small percentage of men, less than 1% , can indulge in an uninterrupted role play that sex does not exist (for them.)

The hypocrisy and ludicracy is off the scale.

And the 'hate'? The reason some men and some women are desperate to silence these women and force their compliance? That would be because they perceive it as unacceptable that women say no to men, that penis portions do not extend to rights, that women will not gladly sacrifice and martyr themselves for men.

This reflects massive sexism. Massive. It is a massive issue between the ears of people of both sexes reflecting the one really acceptable prejudice left in the UK.

And no it's not 'just that bit of the site'. It is the exact same issue you see all over the site including the bits that the moderators are openly proud of.

The women helping other women escape who are locked in the bathroom with a black eye and a fractured cheekbone because he tried to strangle her two hours ago. Who know that the police won't do much because domestic and men gonna men.

The women helping the woman do a flit this morning with the kids to a refuge knowing he is at his most dangerous if he knows she is escaping. And no one but women are going to help, but the refuges are going to have men in them. (Except that women staff will fiddle the system as much as they dare in secret because men are gonna men.)

The women helping the woman with the MiL who is fixed in the belief that a good woman will lay down and surrender herself and her mind and body and sanity to keeping a man happy and doing what suits him. No one believes that the man should give the woman equality of care and consideration or sacrifice himself because men gonna men.

The women in maternity units who had a C section four hours ago and are being expected to manage a newborn alone on paracetamol. Because women don't feel pain like real people do and you can treat them in ways you'd never treat a man.

And now women should accept that some of them will be raped in the name of men's psychological betterment and this is supposed to somehow be ok?

Sexism. On crack. It's the same issue. It's always the same fucking issue .

"Well it's hateful cos men are so very distressed when they're told no, and expected to find answers within boundaries that protect other people's rights!"

Diddums.

I care about how the females feel in the situation the male person wants to expose them to. If you are not equally educated about and concerned about them as you are about the males, then you need to go and sort your sexist problem and prejudice out first before you 'squabble'.

I thought this post could do with a second showing as it's worth a second read.

nilsmousehammer · 07/01/2023 09:33

NotBadConsidering · 07/01/2023 09:28

The laziness, cowardice and resulting sheer bloody ignorance of journalists infuriates me. Many of the women here write better in posts they knock out in a few minutes in a coffee break and it's way better researched and evidenced

See also:

Most posters here understand the medical implications and what actually happens to children with puberty blockers and wrong sex hormones far more than most doctors and can reference journal articles with good evidence and research to back it up.

Reuters write an article on detransitioners, or Amelia Gentleman writes an article on the worry of girls transitioning similar to posts that anyone here has probably casually knocked out over the last few years and they get a hearty clap on the back 🙄.

Exactly.

"Educate yourself" is the whine. As if, as an activist tried to explain yesterday, we met just one lovely TQ+ male we'd be glad to abandon the women we've never met and don't know to sucking up their sex based duty of rape and exclusions and loss of equality. If we just knew a lovely male we wouldn't care any more about female rights!

Educate yourself?

Oh we have.

TightFistedWozerk · 07/01/2023 09:35

Fair play to Justine, a fine line to tread and I am grateful to her for hosting this space.

She may not 'get it' all - certainly I don't 'get it' all, and you lot have explained stuff to me in tiny little words over the years - but being still willing to say 'oi, yes let the women speak', with the risks that entails is admirable. Gin for Justine Gin

AlisonDonut · 07/01/2023 09:36

piedbeauty · 07/01/2023 09:19

Cis does not mean heterosexual 🙄🙄🙄

It makes perfect sense to me that the Telegraph thinks CIS means heterosexual, bearing in mind that women who love other women are completely not 'gender conforming'. Heterosexuals being the 'normal' [in their eyes].

Of course the MOST gender conforming 'cis' people are men who use any means necessary to get accesss to women and girls. Many of whom use 'trans' as a front for this.

It's all so convoluted until you go back to 'males' and 'females'.

Oh what a tangled web we weave....

NotBadConsidering · 07/01/2023 09:36

That used to be called things like 'integrity' and 'professionalism' back in the day, when those in positions of power and influence actually had some class. Before total emotional incontinence and infantile behaviour became the norm. I respect the hell out of her for it.

I concede that point of view, but there’s also been the consideration over the years of the impact of advertisers and their decision around whether views expressed here were consistent with their brand, so I have a suspicion that not expressing a strong view may be a business/financial decision also. Which I also totally get.

Datun · 07/01/2023 09:37

nilsmousehammer · 07/01/2023 09:21

The laziness, cowardice and resulting sheer bloody ignorance of journalists infuriates me. Many of the women here write better in posts they knock out in a few minutes in a coffee break and it's way better researched and evidenced.

Why is there this 'squabble'?

Squabble?

Because - as an activist poster plainly and specifically laid out last night in a thread - this is about men requiring that all women suck up a sex based duty to be raped, excluded and disadvantaged, and see this as a fair price for the better psychological happiness and freedoms of some of the male sex. This is about requiring women to accept sex based disadvantage and discrimination and the horror of things such as rape and exclusion and being left in life threatening relationships so that a small percentage of men, less than 1% , can indulge in an uninterrupted role play that sex does not exist (for them.)

The hypocrisy and ludicracy is off the scale.

And the 'hate'? The reason some men and some women are desperate to silence these women and force their compliance? That would be because they perceive it as unacceptable that women say no to men, that penis portions do not extend to rights, that women will not gladly sacrifice and martyr themselves for men.

This reflects massive sexism. Massive. It is a massive issue between the ears of people of both sexes reflecting the one really acceptable prejudice left in the UK.

And no it's not 'just that bit of the site'. It is the exact same issue you see all over the site including the bits that the moderators are openly proud of.

The women helping other women escape who are locked in the bathroom with a black eye and a fractured cheekbone because he tried to strangle her two hours ago. Who know that the police won't do much because domestic and men gonna men.

The women helping the woman do a flit this morning with the kids to a refuge knowing he is at his most dangerous if he knows she is escaping. And no one but women are going to help, but the refuges are going to have men in them. (Except that women staff will fiddle the system as much as they dare in secret because men are gonna men.)

The women helping the woman with the MiL who is fixed in the belief that a good woman will lay down and surrender herself and her mind and body and sanity to keeping a man happy and doing what suits him. No one believes that the man should give the woman equality of care and consideration or sacrifice himself because men gonna men.

The women in maternity units who had a C section four hours ago and are being expected to manage a newborn alone on paracetamol. Because women don't feel pain like real people do and you can treat them in ways you'd never treat a man.

And now women should accept that some of them will be raped in the name of men's psychological betterment and this is supposed to somehow be ok?

Sexism. On crack. It's the same issue. It's always the same fucking issue .

"Well it's hateful cos men are so very distressed when they're told no, and expected to find answers within boundaries that protect other people's rights!"

Diddums.

I care about how the females feel in the situation the male person wants to expose them to. If you are not equally educated about and concerned about them as you are about the males, then you need to go and sort your sexist problem and prejudice out first before you 'squabble'.

And if Justine is correct, it's that very same sexism that is making our politicians ignore the massive wodge of floating voters on this site.

It's that ingrained.

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2023 09:39

Roberts was unimpressed by Boris Johnson’s responses to her childcare questions when, earlier this year, she interviewed him for Mumsnet. The then prime minister mused that “maybe you should be able to” use childcare vouchers for activities like Tumbletots.

now unless she had for some strange rain decided to interview the ex PM this week this indicates that this bit of the article isn't recent.

I'm wondering if it's pulled in bits of an older interview as well, or, given the rest is a bit of a mess, it never went through a final edit. (Ignores cis bit as i don't really trust myself today)

nilsmousehammer · 07/01/2023 09:42

Bloody hell, what are they earning at the Telegraph for this lazy mess of a job?

NoSquirrels · 07/01/2023 09:42

nilsmousehammer · 07/01/2023 09:30

How can she?

Justine is doing exactly what we bloody well need the government and all local authorities and civil institutions to do.

She is making it impossible to know what her own personal views are on the subject as not relevant while maintaining spaces for both beliefs and not allowing one to silence the other outside of the law. She makes it clear that it does not matter what she thinks personally, and does not involve her own feelings.

That used to be called things like 'integrity' and 'professionalism' back in the day, when those in positions of power and influence actually had some class. Before total emotional incontinence and infantile behaviour became the norm. I respect the hell out of her for it.

Agreed nilsmouse. I respect the hell out of Justine too.

Floisme · 07/01/2023 09:45

Justine is doing exactly what we bloody well need the government and all local authorities and civil institutions to do.

She is making it impossible to know what her own personal views are on the subject as not relevant while maintaining spaces for both beliefs and not allowing one to silence the other outside of the law. She makes it clear that it does not matter what she thinks personally, and does not involve her own feelings.

Yes. I was trying to write something similar but nilsmousehammer's post is far more articulate so I'll quote it instead!

If it hadn't been for Justine, this space probably would not exist. And if it hadn't been for this space...well my guess is I might just be starting to wake up and wonder what was going on. I am more grateful to her than I can say.

Bletrame · 07/01/2023 10:16

LaChatte · 07/01/2023 08:58

I disagree about it being a minority who feel very very strongly about it. It's a minority who are active in the discussion. Lots of us follow the board without participating, doesn't mean we don't feel strongly about it too.

I'm sure Justine is fully aware of the traffic across the different boards including page views, why would you disagree with her?

HiccupHorrendousHaddock · 07/01/2023 10:18

If anything, the article makes me more impressed by Justine - it's a badly written mess, but if Justine really doesn't get the GC position, all the more credit for defending our right and space to air it.

Thank you, Justine.

nauticant · 07/01/2023 10:25

I think she'll take full credit if/when the tables properly turn, and tbh I wouldn't begrudge her it.

I agree. To declare how important MN has been now would just be painting another target on her back and on MN. To what end?

As I read the article I see Justine as a pretty shrewd businesswoman with strong principles.

LaChatte · 07/01/2023 10:25

Bletrame · 07/01/2023 10:16

I'm sure Justine is fully aware of the traffic across the different boards including page views, why would you disagree with her?

🙄

JellySaurus · 07/01/2023 10:27

HiccupHorrendousHaddock · 07/01/2023 10:18

If anything, the article makes me more impressed by Justine - it's a badly written mess, but if Justine really doesn't get the GC position, all the more credit for defending our right and space to air it.

Thank you, Justine.

Yes.

waterwitch · 07/01/2023 10:38

bletrame just because she sees the numbers reading a board doesn’t mean she knows how those people are responding if they don’t actually post.

MassiveWordSalad · 07/01/2023 10:38

I think it illustrates @nilsmousehammer 's point that this article is such a bad job. It's just women's stuff, innit? No need to put serious thought into it.

Thank you, Justine, for doing what you do. This place is important.

waterwitch · 07/01/2023 10:40

I am quite interested in the ‘lack of algorithm’ claim - there have certainly been robust and v fast moving threads here which have somehow never made it into the trending list. There must be some manipulation, but I wouldn’t guess at the motivation for that

waterwitch · 07/01/2023 10:42

Definitely want to add my thanks and support to Justine for protecting this space. It has been invaluable for me