BBC publishes an Anti-Cymraeg article for gender fanatics

[fromorbit]

Apparently one of oldest language still widely spoken in Europe is primitive and out of touch. Guess what it needs to become more like which language.... ENGLISH.

What a surprise? My Cymraeg is bad I am ashamed to admit, but I give it due respect unlike this BBC article.

Welsh language: Non-binary speakers want gender-neutral help
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64164011

The grammatical structures of English are not superior to Cymraeg, it does not need to be Anglicised to become "better". This is colonialist bullshit, it is English speakers and Welsh people ashamed of their own language being "inferior" in grammar. Remember the logic of their position is that English, with mostly gender neutral forms, is better than any gendered language like Arabic, Hebrew, Hindi or Spanish. If you think Jews or Muslims need to change their language so it is more like English grammar without use of gender, or Mexicans need to speak an Anglicised Spanish, you are not only wrong you are obviously an awful person.

Newsflash - if you think one language's structures are BETTER than another
language you are a bigot. This is the rhetoric of Imperialism where primitive, out dated languages along with their speakers need to become either eliminated or assimilate to the superior more moral, modern language - which once again is English.

We have been here before Gaelic and Cymraeg are not inferior, English speakers are not more purer more moral beings than the Welsh, Irish or Scots.

Languages are at the heart and soul of culture. Elevating English as ethically better than Welsh is a disaster for Wales.

Gender Crit circles in Wales have been warning this might happen for a while now, but it is going to the next level. How long before schools are handing out signs for Welsh Nots for using gendered Welsh?

I only hope the Welsh Language lobby fight back against this, but I fear they are captured. I see Welsh gender crits on twitter are already horrified. Could be a good opportunity to raise awareness.

This is colonialist bullshit

The whole ideology. Everything influenced by the ideology.

Welsh speakers may not speak their language because it does not conform to the trans ideology.

English must be distorted because it does not conform to the trans ideology.

Everybody's communication must be changed and distorted to confirm with the trans ideology.

Colonialist bullshit. Perfect description.

This is awful to read about and so disrespectful to the Welsh language. I’m not Welsh but have been learning Cymraeg for over a year. It’s a language with such a rich history and should be treasured as one of the surviving branches of the Celtic family.

It doesn’t surprise me that the gender zealots do not respect difference in language or see if as something worth preserving. All boundaries are there to be ‘queered’. You are right that it is another form of colonialism and ‘we know better and our way is superior’ thinking. The drive to be ‘inclusive’ seems hell bent on erasing some forms of diversity completely.

Am I reading the same article as you? How have you interpreted it as English-language imperialism?

The article is about Welsh language nouns and profession names being gendered, and how some non-binary people would like non-gendered versions. Not dissimilar to English language profession names dropping 'man' at the end (eg Chairman - Chair; fireman - fire fighter) or 'actress' being dropped in favour of 'actor'. Also newly made-up pronouns (eg zir) that no one outside of some LBGTQ circles knowing about.

There's no suggestion that the English language is superior to Welsh.

I speak Welsh. I've got a degree in it. It's a gendered language like many/most others.

Will we be allowed to use genders for inanimate objects, I wonder? I note that Ella Peel's group "Cymuned Cymraeg" is grammatically incorrect - the word 'cymuned' is feminine and the adjective following it should therefore mutate to 'Gymraeg', so it seems not. Thus trashing the language even further.

So yes, it is colonialist bullshit. Honestly, they can get in the bin, these idiots.

Aargh..this is getting silly now. Most languages are gendered. Afaik in Irish it is just a way of describing how different nouns are pronounced following the definite article etc. It's not like objects have different gender or sexual attributes.

Having said the country itself is female , being named for the Goddess : Éire.

Languages are at the heart and soul of culture. Elevating English as ethically better than Welsh is a disaster for Wales.

Yes. And given Welsh has such ancient roots it should be especially respected. IMO.

'Non-binary Welsh speakers have said they feel unable to express their identities in the language due to its gendered nature.'

People who have invented a new 'identity' feel hampered by its previous lack of existence - oh, the humanity.

"It's extremely important the Welsh language evolves and is inclusive, the language dies if it gets stuck in a box that stays with the old ways.'

Aye, how on earth has it managed so far over the past 1400 years, eh?

Strangely enough, non binary speakers of french and Spanish have managed thus far...

There are many gendered languages. Some linguistic genders don't make sense to learners from other backgrounds - German Mädchen (girl) is neuter - because all words with a -chen suffix are neuter. It can still take a while to get your head round the word for girl not being feminine, though.

Welsh can be a particular joy because of mutations, which are in part governed by noun gender. But all languages contain gems like this which you just have to learn and make mistakes in, even after years of learning. Prepositions can be fun like this in many languages.

Linguistic gender is not the same as human gender - if you want to follow gender stereotypes at all. Life will be easier if you don't, IMO. If you assume linguistic gender is the same as gender in humans, it will be a struggle. What will you do in foreign language learning with words for one thing having different genders in different languages? (e.g. Spanish el ponte (m) vs German die Brücke (f) for bridge.)

Linguistic gender is not about you.

Now, can anyone remember if I had Welsh homework before evening classes restart next week?

Quite right Bearhug. The insistence that gender in relation to nouns - 'cenedl' in Welsh - has anything at all to do with the sociological concept of gender ('rhywedd'), or gender identity ('hunaniaeth rhywedd') or even sex ('rhyw') is illiterate. I agree that it is looking at a different language through a very colonialist and anglo-centric lens. Almost as if these individuals are attending Welsh classes with preconceived ideas that English is some sort of gold standard, and definitely as if they are attending with a determination to pick up only any aspect that may or may not be validating their chosen identity.

It's sad that the teacher is being so pathetic about it instead of challenging their prejudice. I remember an equality law professor who didn't speak Welsh telling us that she was concerned that the word 'merched' could mean 'girls', 'daughters' or 'women' in Welsh (kudos to organisations like Merched Cymru for using it!). She was robustly challenged. The baggage attached to certain vocabulary isn't automatically there in every language. Being bilingual isn't just about having exact equivalents to every word or phrase or idea. Even those who don't speak Welsh seem to find that attractive about words like 'hiraeth' or 'cwtch' or 'hwyl', with no exact English equivalents, so why are Welsh tutors and organisations not standing their ground?

Would that were the case @AnnaBegins 🫤

@NitroNine that article seems focused on learners of a second language and their perspective. French non binary native speakers that I know of seem happy to use the masculine adjective as the neutral (cf mixed group of male and female people) or use e.g. content.e as an either/or middle ground.
As a linguist, anyone calling a language outdated or forcing change annoys me massively. Languages change through usage, and that's a good thing! So that article on Welsh is so saddening.

Being bilingual isn't just about having exact equivalents to every word or phrase or idea.

Absolutely. But these people use neologisms like wrecking balls to further their own ideologies.

I didn’t read the article as being anti-Welsh language.
I do however have concerns that 22 year olds are demanding that an ancient language changes because of their feelz.
What a pretentious little mx.

Another Welsh speaker here. The thing with Welsh is that it’s not just that pronouns and nouns for inanimate objects are gendered, it’s that their gender (m/f) affects the whole sentence. Feminine nouns take a whole different set of mutations from masculine ones, and that applies both to the noun itself and to any associated adjectives. And there’s no singular neutral (“it”). You can’t just swap out a masculine word for a feminine word or try to invent a neutral form; you need to know the word’s grammatical gender (which as others have said, has nothing to do with bodily sex) in order to construct the rest of the sentence: pronouns, mutations, adjectives….

So to those who don’t understand why this is an attack on the Welsh language itself: this isn’t about changing or adding a few words, it’s an attack on the very structure and comprehensibility of the whole language. It would literally change almost every single sentence in the language and render it nigh-incomprehensible. And/or it would become transliterated English in some way. And the Welsh are sick and tired of being told English is the superior language.

Interestingly, when 'it' is needed as a dummy pronoun (a pronoun that doesn't actually refer to a real noun) in Welsh, it is usually feminine - 'hi'.

So:
Mae hi'n bwrw glaw "It's raining"
Roedd hi'n braf "It was fine/sunny"
Mae hi'n wyntog heddiw "It's windy today"

Mae hi'n un o'r gloch "It's one o'clock"
Mae hi'n chwarter wedi tri "It's quarter past three"
Mae hi'n hanner nos "It's midnight",
Mae hi'n hen bryd "It's about time"

And given that many prepositions in Welsh have different forms depending on person and gender, i.e. grammatical gender eg. amdanaf i, amdanat ti, amdano ef, amdani hi, amdamom ni, amdamoch ch, amdanynt hwy, you therefore get expressions like:
Dal ati "Keep at it" (ati = at + hi)
Cer amdani! "Go for it!" (amdani = am + hi)
Dw i wrthi'n ... "I'm in the process of..." (wrthi = wrth + hi)

Er, @AnnaBegins, did you read beyond it being a response a language learner asking a question? The article is (mostly) about how non-binary pronouns are being developed by native speakers (with some stuff on evolution of use gendered language). The big list of non-binary pronouns at the end is of non-binary pronouns developed & used by native speakers of those languages.

"Some speakers of Hebrew have simply combined the language’s masculine and feminine plural suffixes (-im and -ot, respectively) into a new gender-inclusive suffix -imot, expanding the traditional plural forms for the Hebrew word for “friends” (chaverot, chaverim) to also include the gender-inclusive form chaverimot.

Spanish speakers have found ways around using the masculine as default, including with new words (elles), different expressions (mis amigues or mis amigxs as ways to say "my friends"), or leaving out the pronoun if possible.

Galician, a Romance language spoken in northwestern Spain, has two different non-binary systems currently in development, which have come into broader use at about the same time and which simply developed among different groups of people.

If it suits you better though, here’s an article from when Roberts added iel; & an information page about Spanish non-binary pronouns & identities.

Seems a bit daft, trashing the complex and distinctive grammar of a language at the behest of 0.06% of the population (figure for Wales newly published by the Census).

this isn’t about changing or adding a few words, it’s an attack on the very structure and comprehensibility of the whole language. It would literally change almost every single sentence in the language and render it nigh-incomprehensible. And/or it would become transliterated English in some way.

This applies to every language with grammatical gender. Genderist ideology attacks every form of clear communication and distorts it until concepts relating to sex cannot be clearly communicated or understood.

This attack on the Welsh language is just another example of the colonialist entitlements that underpins every aspect of genderism.

Quite a few Welsh language speakers here. I think there should be a move to join Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg form a gender crit group inside. Start kicking up a fuss about the threat to the Ancient Tongue. If we can get them onside we will have a potent ally, moreover one the Welsh establishment is way way more scared of than feminists, because men are involved. Even if we just start a huge debate it will be worth it. Because Welsh speakers LOVE talking about the language and it will get people thinking about how this stuff makes no sense.

cymdeithas.cymru/

Gender Crits are doing worse in certain ways than in Scotland because the power structures in Wales are even more captured, however the Welsh language is an area where we can open another area for debate. It is one where this stuff makes even less sense than in English.

That sounds a good idea in theory, fromorbit, but Cymdeithas is one of the many smaller organisations that have been completely captured. Just like with Yes Cymru, the number of young activists who seem to put (their idea of) purity on trans issues above commitment to the actual objectives of the organisation has caused a lot of discontent and alienation among members and supporters. At the FiLiA conference in Cardiff I expected to see Cymdeithas and the history of women's activism through the Welsh language movement highlighted in the same way as Greenham protests were. But no, not a selsygen. They were warned off apparently. Not sure whether there's been a recent change of chair but the last one I'd heard of was ex-Stonewall, had caused havoc by misinterpreting the Equality Act within Plaid Cymru and is on some sort of crusade. Sad to see it come to this. There should be room for a range of opinions on issues that aren't central to preserving the language, especially when those views are in line with reality and the views of the majority. Instead there's been the usual childish name-calling and labelling long-serving campaigners transphobes.

The article is about Welsh and does not say that English is better, just that non-binary people don't like it that nouns in Welsh are gendered. I think Welsh speakers should ignore non-binary people, except to explain in words of one syllable that all of us are 'non-binary' in the sense that we do not conform to e.g. Stonewalls Barbie/Action Man stereotypes and thus must fall between them which makes us non-binary (because 'non-binary = not feeling male of female). Briefly this runs 'the majority of people do not conform absolutely to the stereo type of Barbie Girl and Action Man. The majority of people fall between these two extremes. Following from that almost everyone is non-binary. The conclusion of this argument is that we do not base our speech, pronouns or gendered nouns on this non-feeling but on whether our biology is male of female.' The whole article is gender woo woo that insults every language on the planet.

This is exactly it. Communication is unimportant to an ideology that demands “No debate”. The important thing is to undermine language by ‘queering’ it, in order to undermine the concepts and the reality it expresses.

non-binary people don't like it that nouns in Welsh are gendered

Grammatical gender usually has even less connection to social gender than social gender has to sex.

What a load of boo-hoo-I'm-so-special bollocks.